A lot of Cubs fans are concerned–way too concerned–about whether or not the Cubs trade for Orioles second baseman Brian Roberts. The reason for their concern is what surprises me. They’re not worried the Cubs might not be able to pull off a trade to get Roberts. They’re worried that they will get him.
Huh? What’s not to like about Brian Roberts? He’s an All-Star at his position, he’s a Gold Glove caliber defender, he’s one of the best base stealers in all the Major Leagues and he’s one of the best leadoff men. Oh, and he’s a switch hitter. So what’s the problem?
The problem, in the eyes of many Cubs fans, is that the move might hurt Mark DeRosa’s feelings.
DeRosa was, after all, one of the best Cubs last season. followed up the best season of his career (2006 in Texas) with an even better year. His average was nearly as high (.293 in 2007 after .296 in 2006) his on-base average was a career high .371 and he hit into a career high 17 double plays–wait, that’s probably not something to be proud of.
Basically, when the season ended last year, you wouldn’t have been crazy to wish that the Cubs would find more players like DeRosa.
What would that be, exactly? Smart guys who can play defense, know the strike zone, draw their share of walks and generally play the game correctly.
Kind of like Kosuke Fukudome did in Japan. And like Brian Roberts has done in Baltimore.
Holy shit! The Cubs might actually be putting together a “team” instead of just a collection of overpaid guys who swing from their asses and kick the ball around like they’re trying out for a spot on Manchester United.
So how is this a bad thing? Well, apparently because Roberts plays the same position that DeRosa played most often last year it’s just the Cubs being “mean” to DeRosa.
At the Cubs’ Convention DeRosa was asked about the potential deal and asked if he thought the Cubs should go after Roberts. His answer, was typically for him, well thought out. “Look, I can’t win with this. If I say I don’t want the Cubs to get him, I’m selfish. If I say I do want them to get him then I don’t want to play. They’re going to do what they’re going to do.”
What the touch-feely-hand-wringers seem to forget is that DeRosa didn’t get his three year contract with the Cubs because they thought he was the second coming of Ryne Sandberg. They signed him because he’s versatile. He can play second, and first and the corner outfield spots, and honestly, his best position is third base. If he played there every day he’d probably win a Gold Glove. He doesn’t have the bat to play third, but he’s got the glove.
Without looking. How many games did DeRosa play at second last year? What’s your guess? 120? 130?
Try 93. He played 37 games at third, 22 in right, nine at first, one in left and one at short. So is it that crazy that the Cubs still see second base as a spot they could add to?
The plan going into last season was for Cesar Izturis to play short and for DeRosa and Ryan Theriot to split second while filling in around the diamond. Because Izturis sucked, so did the plan. But the Cubs made it work by sending Cesar to Pissburgh and playing Theriot at short.
What it looks like the Cubs would ideally do this year is to have Roberts play second and have Theriot and DeRosa split short while filling in around the diamond.
There are some problems with this plan. First, you never know when the Orioles are actually going to allow you to trade with them. The Mariners agreed to a trade with them ages ago and just got it finalized on Friday. That trade?
Mark Belanger for Juan Beniquez.
Second, neither Theriot or DeRosa has the range to play shortstop. Both of them will make the plays they get to, they just won’t get to as many as you’d like.
Given that the Cubs pitching staff has led the NL in strikeouts for seven seasons in a row, an that you can grow the grass at Wrigley so high that you’d only know Theriot was in the game because the little red button on top of his cap would be showing, you probably can get away with it, though.
Actually, if you’re going to play either of them at short, you need to upgrade at second, at least as far as defensive range is concerned. The 2007 Cubs played a lot better defense than the 2006 Cubs did. Of course, nine holler monkeys would have played better defense than the 2006 Cubs did.
If you take a look at the Cubs’ every day lineup, you can see that they are set at several positions. First base is in good hands with Derrek Lee, same with third and E-ramis Ramirez, and left with Alfonso Soriano. They’ve sunk a lot of money in Fukakke in right, so that just leaves the middle of the field. Just. Like it’s not the most important part of your team.
They’re going with a rookie catcher in Geovany Soto. A guy who won the Pacific Coast League MVP, and all of the glory that comes with it (none). They have no clue who the centerfielder will be, except that they’d like it to be Felix Pie, a guy who would have won the Pacific Coast League MVP and all of the glory that comes with it except that he spent the majority of the season sitting on the bench in the big leagues, not hitting when he did play. Then, you’ve got Mark and Ryan.
Let’s assume that the Cubs get league average production out of Soto. That would be a huge improvement over the complete crap they put behind the plate last year. You’re still lacking at second, short and center.
Remind me again why trading for Roberts is a bad idea?
Given that Fukkake can play center and right, what you could see if Roberts becomes a Cub is a ‘platoon’ in center where Pie plays against righties and Fukkake plays center against lefties with DeRosa in right.
What does it say about Matt Murton that the option of playing him in right against lefties can be so easily dismissed because of his pathetic outfield defense? It says a lot. None of it good.
Sitting here in the shadow of cheeseland, I think the current Cubs roster is better than last year, but I expect the Brewers to be better, also. I’m encouraged that the Brewers continue to play with the handicap of Ned Yost’s ‘leadership.’
Cincinnati should be a team on the rise, but they inexplicably picked the worst possible manager for a team trying to win with young players.
There are, as we know, different factions of Cubs’ fans. There are the bitter old ones who, after a lifetime of watching realize they’ve wasted that lifetime on a horseshit baseball team.
There are the overly sentimental ones, who think 1969 was ‘neat’ and 1984 was ‘great’ and 2003 was ‘so fun.’ I’d like to hit these fans in the face with a shovel.
Every team in every sport has fans like these. But the Cubs have more than most, due likely to the cute little ballpark they play in and the reach of WGN through the country in the ’80s and ’90s on cable systems.
Every baseball team now has stat-oriented fans. Fans who think they’ve figured baseball out thanks to Michael Lewis’ “Moneyball” and baseballthinkfactory.org. They subscribe to Baseball Prospectus. The problem is that many of these fans aren’t nearly as smart as they think they are and all of the data in the world won’t help the stupid. They tend to be in their 20s and early 30s and they all tend to be experts on minor league players they’ve never actually seen play.
Then, there are the rational fans. Guys like us. Guys who don’t run blindly into a season. Guys who come up with reasons why the Cubs will fail long before they do. Guys who make fun of everything and have learned to enjoy the Cubs despite themselves.
We are of course, the only ‘true fans.’ Or so we think. Fact is, the other groups all feel exactly the same way about themselves. No delusion sells like self delusion.
And, the poster boy in determining which fan group you belong to is Ryan Theriot.
The four groups have four wildly different takes on Theriot and his ability to play shortstop on a daily basis.
The bitter old ones know that he doesn’t “look” like a shortstop. You know who looked like a shortstop? Don Kessinger, that’s who. Ryan Theriot’s not Don Kessinger. He’s Larry Bowa or maybe even Mick Kelleher, but he’s no Don Kessinger. (Even though Kessinger was 6’1, 175 and Theriot is 5’11, 175.) The Cubs need to find a “real” shortstop.
The sentimental ones, predictably think Theriot is the bees knees. The day that Lou Piniella moved him to shortstop was the day the Cubs started to make a run to the championship. They love his hustle, they love his “scrap” and well, they just love him. He’s cute. He’s a smart player. He played, the Cubs won. End of story. He must now play shortstop until the end of time.
The guys who aren’t as smart as they think they are think Theriot’s a disaster. His VORP was too low, his Range Factor is lacking, his OPS dove into the abyss in September. All of this makes perfect sense (if you know what any of those acronyms stand for) except for the fact that they all think playing Ronny Cedeno is the answer. Or, they want to trade for Fabio Greene in San Diego. They can’t actually come up with a trade the Padres would actually make, but it’s what they want.
Then, there’s the rest of us. I’ll just speak for myself here. Theriot was a huge improvement over Izturis and Cedeno, and the fact that plays started getting made at short on a routine basis and at bats were not automatically given away did help turn the season around for the Cubs. What I liked most was the message it sent the rest of the team. Lou was telling the guys, “if you play well, you’ll continue to play” no matter what your contract looked like or what you looked like in the uniform.
Some people think Theriot only had one bad month in 2007, and some think he only had one good one. The answer, as most things in life do, lies in between.
Theriot got off to a nice start as a part-time player in April and May. In June he was given the everyday shortstop job and struggled. Then, in July he went batshit crazy at the plate, hitting .348 with a .437 on base average and slugging .483. He started to slide in August and posted a wanting, but not terrible (yet) on base average of .315 and he fell apart in September hitting only .202 with a terrible .257 on base average.
So I’ll give you my earth-shattering assessment of Ryan Theriot at short for the Cubs. Right now he’s the best one they have on the team, so he should play it. If they get Brian Roberts, they should give Mark DeRosa a shot at it and see how he does. The main argument against DeRosa playing some short is that he won’t have the range to do it.
But in his career, DeRosa’s played 138 games at short and hasn’t been bad, he’s been average. Kind of like Theriot. With a better bat.
I don’t see Roberts as a “marginal” improvement at second. He’s a lot better player than DeRosa is. Andy MacPhail is asking for a lot for him, and with the Orioles’ supposed signing of Josh Fogg today to fill the ‘veteran presence’ slot on their staff, the Cubs won’t be able to dump Jason Marquis on the O’s anymore.
If you piece all of the new rumors together, it looks like this is the Cubs’ plan. They’re going to try to trade Sean Gallagher, Ronny Cedeno and Matt Murton to the Orioles for Roberts and probably be stuck taking on Jay Payton and his contract, too. It’s only one more year and $5 million, but Jay’s an asshole and he and Lou are going to be wrestling in the dugout by May 10. Then, the Cubs are going to sign the great Alex Cintron to take Cedeno’s place as the unnecessary extra middle infielder on the bench.
Let’s hope they hurry up, this has been dragging on longer than the Jock Jones trade saga of ought-seven.
Whatever they do, pitchers and catchers report in three days. It’ll be a melancholy time, what with Mark Prior’s towel drill moving across the desert to Peoria, Arizona.
Excuse me while I sob. Won’t anyone think of the towels!?!
Wow… covered a lot of ground there.
What about those of us Cubs fans who still feel strangely attracted to Keith Moreland and Marla Collins? Where do we fit in??
Everything you say here I agree with. The classification of Cubs fans is right on, using Theriot is the best way to differentiate between them, and you said “ought-seven” Sweet.
Cubs fans who prefer Cedeno are all kinds of stupid. Furthermore, adding Roberts gives us the depth to play DeRosa at third for when Aramis inevitably goes on the dl for six weeks in the middle of the season.
I was gonna write a post on the DeRosa crybabies. Now I’ll just post a link.
I thought for a second there that you were talking about DeRosa when you said he would probably win a gold glove if he played third base every day. Then I realized you were talking about Sandberg…
Now I read that part again and realized you actually were talking about DeRosa… and third base… and a Gold Glove. But then I realized I was still screwed up and that BC actually wrote this article. I always hated it when I was reading what I thought was a Dose and that Dolan had completely gone out of his gourd, only to realize I was reading a BC joint. And this is apparently one of those times.
Ramirez is better at third than DeRosa and he would be no matter how many game DeRo played over there. Quicker, stronger arm basically identical glove and foot skills. And Ramirez somehow can’t win a Gold Glove. It’s not fair but it’s true.
And DeRo wouldn’t win dick.
You’ve sold me, Andy. I now believe that DeRosa won’t be a disaster at shortstop.
Also, the Juan Beniquez reference has totally made my day.
And Apex–put the bottle down. I hardly think Dolan’s making any sort of a comparison between DeRosa and Ramirez. Are you daft?
I know that he wasn’t suggesting that DeRo should play third instead of Ramirez. I understand he was saying hypothetically, if Ramirez was injured or DeRo played third for the Orioles or something that he’d be a gold glover, “probably.”
I’m just saying probably not. It’s not worth a flame war, I’m just giving him shit.
“Holler monkeys”? Is that what you call howler monkeys who yell at their lackadaisical teammates?
I’ve been sayin’ this stuff for weeks. Not out loud, though. Oh, I’d write up some posts for the messageboard, but I’d always get distracted when postin’-time came. By my dog mostly. She sure is playful. She’s got this stuffed cheetah that she likes to have you throw. Sure, I’ll act like it’s some kind of chore to throw and wrestle away from her. But I really like playing with it, too. There. I said it. Happy, pappy? Anyway, I agree with most of the article, but I woulda used a more flattering picture of Derosa. And I’m expecting him to hit about .275 this year with an OBP of .330.
Some people think Theriot only had one bad month in 2007, and some think he only had one good one. The answer, as most things in life do, lies in between.
So, besides July, in what other month could Theriot have been considered “good?”
Take it over to me, Apex. 4 paragraph comments after a Dose is douche-worthy, especially when you waste an entire paragraph talking about Ramirez which you, yourself, admit is beside the point.
you suck apex
Heh. The Riot as Barometer of CubFanness. I like this kind of shorthand indicator. I myself, when meeting someone new, usually ask them one of two questions:
a. Which cable news do you watch?
b. What do you think of Paris Hilton?
If they say “Fox” or “She’s hot”, I just turn and walk away. I can add “Ryan Theriot: Good or Bad?” to my toolbelt.
BTW: the pic of DeRosa looks like a hollermonkey
My thoughts on Theriot pretty much mirror yours, Andy, but I will say that there’s another factor at work here, causing some folks to be classified as the weepy senitmentalist when they normally don’t view the Cubs that way.
There is something to be said for what The Riot represented in Year One of the Lou Piniella Era: the infusion of smart, team-first baseball after so many years without and the notion that the best player plays. A few of my friends who fall into the “bitter old bastards” crowd would morph into touchy-feely Stuart Smalley types as soon as the topic of Theriot would come up last season. Perhaps you could say that Cubs fans of all stripes welcomed the *concept* of a Ryan Theriot, if you’ll pardon the psychobabble b.s. for a second.
Me, I think he was just fine for the 2007 Cubs, but that doesn’t mean I want him at shortstop in perpetuity if there are better options out there.
I mentioned this on 1060 after the convention.
My buddies and I now have a running joke:
Whenever you say the name ‘Mark DeRosa’, you need to give a round of applause. All throughout the convention, people would clap at just the MENTION of DeRosa’s name.
So, we’d be sitting around the bar during the convention, and my buddy JR would go ‘Let’s hear it for Mark DeRosa!’
Then, we’d all start clapping. Even the girls. Tons of fun.
Tons of fun.
Hey, one more thing…and please…pardon my ignorance:
But could somebody explain VORP to me in dumbman’s terms?
I was at that one game DeRosa played at short. He booted one ball and errantly made the flip from short to second. DeRosa got switched midgame (I believe it was the 3rd inning) over to second and Lou’s comments after the game was that it was a mistake to put him over there.
Now, at the time I was surprised what a quick hook had for DeRosa at short. As much as I’d like to see his bat at that position, I don’t feel Lou will go wild about revisiting the idea.
Is this reason enough to not make the Roberts deal? No. But getting average fielding out of DeRosa at short would be a perfect scenario. Hence, the debate about where he’ll play. The Pie/Fukodome platoon in center allowing DeRosa to play right makes much more sense. I would expect DeRosa would get a majority of starts in RF with a Roberts trade consumated.
Q: Which cable news do you watch?
A; I don’t watch news. Just pornos. 24-7. Only right-wing whackos watch Fox.
Q: What do you think of Paris Hilton?
A: Not that hot, but then again I’ve only see her in “One Night in Paris”.
Q: Ryan Theriot: Good or bad?
A: Bad. But if his wife is hot, I may reconsider, especially if she’s in to threesomes.
The Cubs have 17 capable middle infielders. I’d be just as happy with Theriot and DeRosa and I’d be with any combination of Theriot, DeRosa and Roberts. Christ, they might as well be named Matty, Felipe and Jesus and ride to work together. But that little hole in the OF worries me. You can’t expect much out of a lineup with two dead outs at #8 and #9, 3 days out of 5. I hope all this Roberts bullshit is just hype. Go get Figgins instead.
What’s the paragraph limit for un-doucheworthy?
Lick my balls.
This is my first time to the site and I know you all are very happy for me. I agree with most everything in the article, one factor not touched on however is Theriots speed as opposed to DeRosas. Where Derosa or Theriot would bat in the order comes into play as well. Theriot handles the bat when it comes to the bunt very well and I believe Derosa has been quoted stating he is not a big fan of the bunt. My point is Theriot plugs in nice at a 2 spot or late lineup and Derosa I see hitting 6 or 7. Theriot is better defensively and the earlier response from Jim Leo is correct, Lou said he had made a mistake by putting Derosa at short. Brian Roberts is beautiful in a Cubs, trust me I did it on Photoshop, it made me horny in a completely heterosexual way. All in all, lets just get Roberts and go from there.
#17, in dumbman’s terms, VORP is pretty simple. It averages out the production of players at a given position, and determines a baseline level for offense. How far a hitter is above that level determines VORP (Value Over Replacement Player). A replacement player is someone who is easily replaceable, like a guy plucked from the minors.
For example, last year, Ryan Howard had an OPS that was 28 points better than Hanley Ramirez. But since Ramirez plays short — where offense is scarce — his VORP was 89.5, and Howard’s was 53.6.
Basically, if a left fielder and a second baseman each put up a .900 OPS, they’re both good players. But the second baseman is more valuable because it’s easier to find a left fielder who can hit that well than it is to find a second baseman who puts up the same numbers.
You can find VORP stats here: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204031
A-ha! That does make sense. I likey. I don’t know what took me so long to get it…but that does make sense.
“There are, as we know, different factions of Cubs’ fans. There are the bitter old ones who, after a lifetime of watching realize they’ve wasted that lifetime on a horseshit baseball team.”
Yes, that is me. Except that I have wasted two lifetimes on the Cubs. As for Theriot not looking like Kessinger…hell, he doesn’t even look like Roy Smalley.
I think Desipio’s own EG read #22 and is in the process of cleaning his computer from exploding brain.
Iván DeJesús!
Mike D., that is JR. He means no harm. He has a tough time with punctuation.
#19. I’m puzzled. How DID you make me type that? I don’t remember having done it. G-damn NyQuil.
Fact is, I don’t really care where DeRosa plays, as long as he gets his at bats and take over defensively on a routine basis.
He’ll be money for E-Ramis’s inevitable 15-day trip to the DL with some sort of ripped pancreas or torn groin muscle.
Sorry Jim Leo, but your recollection is wrong. Lou had Fontenot playing SS that day and he botched those two plays before being switched over to 2B (DeRosa moving to short).
The addition of Roberts allows for Piniella to actually mix and match his lineup. Who cares if you platoon cf/rf and ss. What matters is that you’re adding a ballplayer that will contribute in every way but HR’s. Not to mention we’d end all this bullshit about Soriano only being productive out of the leadoff spot. Soriano will get his numbers no matter where he bats, strikeouts included, but when over half of his hits are for extra bases, Soriano will become the monster rbi machine we need in the 5 hole.
Cubbiestew, he’s a dead ringer for Wayne Terwilliger.
Hey where do I hit, Dusty?
We had great months too! And we really showed that one good month lasts forever in MLB.
I HAVE seen the minor leaguers play. And, I’m still not as smart as I think I are.
It’s Howler Monkeys you dumbass.
18. I don’t doubt you were at the game, but what you saw was Mike Fontenot start the game at short with DeRosa at second and after an inning, Lou had seen enough and switched them, with DeRosa playing the rest of the game at short.
I also don’t doubt you were fully kreusened.
And it’s obviously my bad on the “howler” monkey thing. I Googled it to see how to spell it, got some results and didn’t bother to see that in the first one that popped up it was actually spelled howler. Makes more sense, anyway.
I thought it was “toweler monkey.”
No love for me? You mention Soto, maintain a site for me and don’t mention me? I feel the Desipio Love.
So no mention that Roberts is a suspected, actually admitted, roider & cheater? No concern that every ligament and tendon in his body is going to one by one explode like our buddy Nomar? I don’t touch roiders with a 10 foot pool regardless of what their VOIP is.