I watched Gladiator again last night because on Sunday night (in a rerun) Russell Crowe was on “Inside the Actor’s Studio” with James Lipton. When talking about the movie, he said that basically they made up the script as they went along. When they started shooting the movie they only had 32 pages of actual script and when they ran out they just started making crap up.
Crowe even said that he made up two of the movie’s most famous lines on the spot. He went to a high school in Sydney, Australia that had a motto (in Latin that translated to) “Truth and Honor.” And during the scene at the beginning of the movie where the Roman army is in Germania fighting off the Nazis (OK, maybe they weren’t Nazis in 180 AD) General Maximus Declas Meridias (he made up the name, too) salutes the other officers with “Strength and honor.” Russell also made up, “At my signal unleash hell.”
So what’s my point? I likely (as I don’t most days) have one. But I was just wondering if there’s ever been a movie that good that was so haphazardly made. It’s pretty obvious that Ridley Scott figured he could make a really cool looking movie about Gladiators and he didn’t need a script.
And…he was right.
But you just know that if they had made that movie ten years before that Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone would have been Maximus. Can you imagine any of that improvisation?
Ah-nuld: Gladiator? Glad I killed you!
Sly: I am Maximo Decimo Merdidio, general of an army up north, father to a murdered kid, husband to a murdered old lady. You want a piece of me? Go for it!
The best actor in the movie isn’t Richard Harris, mainly because he lets himself get killed when Joaquin Phoenix hugs him…but rather it’s Joaquin himself. How many guys could have played Commodus (other than former Commodus Lionel Richie..oh, wait…that’s former Commodore…)? Who wants to play an incestuous weasel who kills his father and demands his sister have his baby! Anyone? Anyone?
And do we have any doubt that if Michael Mann had directed the movie instead of Ridley Scott, that not only would the movie have been nine hours long, but that in the scene where they reinact the Battle of Carthage that when the chariots crashed they’d have exploded?
I didn’t think so.
Basically, this whole Gladiator thing is just a long, rambling way for me to avoid writing about Pete Rose.
Look, I think Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did as a player, but all six of you who didn’t know he was a degenerate scumbag before, well I think you know for good now.
Here’s the amazing thing if you’re Allan H. “Bud” Selig, Jr. Interim Commissioner of Baseball for Life, you have to remove him from the suspended list so he can be eligible for the Hall of Fame. But if you do that you run the risk of some dumbass team hiring him to be their manager. Granted, that doesn’t seem likely.
But here’s the really amazing thing.
It’s not only likely, it’s almost guaranteed that Cincinnati will hire Pete to manage the Reds as early as for the 2005 season. You don’t think that they knew this deal was in the works when they had to decide whether to hire a “real” manager or just retain Dave Miley for another year?
I have an “uncle” who lives in Cincinnati. He’s a former (maybe even current) Cincinnati Reds season ticket holder and we once talked about what the people in Cincinnati think of Pete. He said basically, “If you really made them tell you the truth, they all know he bet on the Reds. But they don’t care. He’s Pete Rose. He could kill a man on the field and they’d say, ‘Sure that was wrong, but the guy had it coming, it’s not Pete’s fault.'”
The best thing is that maybe if Pete comes back to manage the Reds that Joe Buck can retire the Sammy Sosa cork jokes and work on some hilarious “You can bet that Pete Rose is going to use a pinch hitter here,” stuff. Oh, it’ll be priceless.
As for the real Hall of Fame selections, which will be announced early this afternoon, it’s likely that Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley will be the only ones who get in, and neither of them is a sure thing.
We went through this last year and I’ll say it again. When I was a kid growing up, I didn’t like Ryne Sandberg. I knew he was a great player, but he just seemed to prissy for my tastes. He never dove for a grounder, in interviews he only sounded like he knew how to use about nine words and he was just a little aloof. Besides, he was the Paul McCartney of the Cubs. He was the one the girls liked.
But I knew it then while it was happening and I know it now, he’s the best defensive second baseman to ever play the game, and he was the best offensive second baseman of his time. Nobody turned a double play better, nobody ever threw the ball better and more accurately and he carried the 1984 Cubs to the playoffs and pretty much did the same thing five years later. Given the Cubs sorry postseason history, that makes him the Joe DiMaggio of Chicago. Ryne Sandberg deserved to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I don’t think he’ll make it this year, though I do think he’ll come close and I think he gets in next year. But why he has to wait, I have no idea.
On Sandberg I know I’m right. But I’m not really very selective when it comes to other Cubs who I think should be in the Hall of Fame eventually.
Here’s a partial list:
Ron Santo
Greg Maddux
Rafael Palmeiro
Shawon Dunston
Henry Cotto
Gary Woods
Rick Sutcliffe
Jeff Pico
Bob Scanlan
Domingo Ramos
Curtis Wilkerson
Tom Veryzer
Vance Law
Steve Buchele
Thad Bosley
Scot Thompson
Jerome Walton
Dwight Smith
Brant Brown
Paul Assenmacher
Ramon Tatis
Jody Davis
Damon Berryhill
Barry Foote
Sammy Sosa
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood
Mark Grudzielanek
Mickey Morandini
Henry Rodriguez
Candy Maldonado
Dave Smith
Kal Daniels
Doug Jones
Goose Gossage
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
Dick Tidrow
Rich Bordi
Kenny Patterson
That’s probably enough for now.
—
Andre Dawson and Joe Carter are on the ballot too. Excuse me while I go laugh hysterically. Come on, if Kevin Roberson isn’t in the Hall, do these two belong? Hell no.
Nick Saban’s not going to be approached by the Bears unless he sends up a smoke signal or something.
I always thought that if you wanted to attract a bear you just got out your pic-uh-nic basket.
The Bulls beat the Phoenix Suns, who were playing with Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway. Hey, it’s a win. Quick, name the Suns’ coach. I couldn’t do it. I knew Frank Johnson got canned, but I had no idea who the coach was. I guessed Cotton Fitzsimmons, just because.
Nope, it’s not Tom Gugliotta, he’s still playing. Sort of.
Not Kurt Rambis.
Or Paul Westphal.
Or John MacLeod.
Or Scott Skiles. He’s the Bulls coach now. Right?
Or Mike D’Antoni.
No, wait it is Mike D’Antoni! Great between him and Jeff Bzdelik I have no idea how to pronounce an eighth of the Western Conference coaches’ names.
Mike Downey says Pete’s not so bad.
Phil Rogers says he is just that bad. Phil doesn’t like him because he never played for the Rangers.
Kenny Williams went on a cruise. He said he liked it except he got tired of the other passengers calling him “Isaac” and asking him for drinks.
Mariotti puts down the doughnut, picks up the hatchet and delivers another thoughtful column on Pete Rose.
Tug McGraw is dead. His biggest regret. He never got to see his daughter-in-law naked.
It’s Tuesday, but here’s Peter King’s Monday Morning Quarterback.
A Cleveland dumbass lost her $162 million winning lottery ticket. Muahahahahahahahaha!
Princess Di wrote a letter saying that Charles wanted her dead. Ahh, he’s a mumbly Brit, he probably just was ordering dinner.
Wait a minute. Somebody found the Cleveland lottery ticket!
Karry Ling is reporting that this man is now $162 million richer:
Halle Berry wants the biggest pussy she can get. A Bengal tiger.
See, Britney, that guy was no good for you.
More good news for her, the world’s greatest newspaper is reporting that she’s a musical genius.
What about me?
I should be in the Hall just for hitting that shot onto the rooftop across the street.
Andy,
You no my friend. You no list me. I now know you my enemy, just like Mark Grace.
Why shouldn’t I be in the Hall of Fame? You must be pissed at me because I went to UCONN instead of Illinois.
It looks like I came up short again. Don’t worry, though. Next year, they’ll induct me and Dawson and Bruce Sutter and Lee Smith and Ron Santo (who’ll be up again in front of the Vets Committee). And we’ll stiff the Hall of Fame and let them lose out on a big windfall if we were to be there.
I really thought when Eckersely gave up that home run to me in one of my fruity videos that he should not be in the Hall of Fame.
Hey Ryno, I never came up short. Just ask Cindy.
Raffy:
1. Your name is spelled Rafael.
2. How many times have you played in the playoffs? Wasn’t it great when you nixed the trade back to the Cubs only to see them make it to the NLCS?
3. You’re impotent.
Uh Sammy, look again, you’re between Barry Foote and Mark Prior.
Hey Dolan, I demand to be added to that list! I won’t rest until…Zzzz…
Eckersley in over me? Smitty don’t want to say nothing, but it sure sounds like a word that begins with a "C" and ends with a "spiracy."
Lee Smith couldn’t spell conspiracy if you spotted him the c and the spiracy.
Screw you Dolan!
Ramon Tatis is a headhunter. He has no place in the Hall of Fame.
Hey, I can’t wait for the first Dodgers-Cubs series of 2004 so Chip Caray can promote it as, "Come see Jim Riggleman and the Dodgers" for like six weeks beforehand. There’s nothing better than coming to a game to watch a coach sit in the dugout.
Andy, nice list. I haven’t seen that many boobs on the internet since, oh, last night on AL4A. Anyway, thank you for not listing Danny F$c%i*g Jackson on the list. If you had, I was coming up IL 251 to get you…
Commodus: "What is your name, gladiator?"
Sammy: "My name is Gladiator!"
"But if you’re writing a check to me, spell it S-a-m-m-y S-o-s-a. Gracias."
I wonder is there’s cork in Gladiator’s sword?
That’s "I wonder if…"
Nice typing. Douchebag.
If I knew more than nine words I’d be
really pissed off that I got that close this
time. I’m still better than Paul Molitor–coke fiend!
Nice to see that Jim Eisenreich got three votes.
Three?
What, Shemp didn’t get a vote.
See, that’s funny because it supposes that Larry, Moe and Curly voted for him…oh, never mind.
By the way, Randy Myers got a vote and Juan Samuel got two.
Those writers should burn in hell.
Bob Tewsksbury got none. Boo!
That’s "Tewskbury." Douchebag.
Actually, that’s "Tewksbury".
Douchebag.
Hey Sloth, don’t forget me! Me and Danny were a team!
Paul Molitor’s a cokehead and Eckersley was a drunk who was so inside of a bottle that Rick Manning stole his wife from him.
Now Sandberg was neither a cokehead nor a drunk and, while nobody actually stole his wife but rather used her for one-nighters instead, he, in fact, at least stole his NEIGHBOR’S wife, so shouldn’t that count for something?
If Kerry Wood were half a man, he’d demand I get inducted before Dennis Eckersley enjoys the fruits of his, ahem, interesting, relationship with Tony LaRussa. Eckersley pioneered the easy save, entering the game in the 9th with a 3-run lead and the game already locked up.
I won 280 games despite the handicap of starting my career with the White Sox. If it weren’t for my determination to extend my career, Kerry Wood would be working at a Richardson, TX Jiffy Lube.
None of us was even good enough to make Andy’s list as a joke. But we’re all going to Devil Rays camp in February.
That list needs more bad catchers named Rick.
Does this count?
What if my real name was Richard Scott Servais and I just went by Scott?
OK, it’s not. Damnit.
By the way, just reading the name Derrick Bothelo makes me laugh.
So does:
Lance Dickson
Dave Masters
Jesse Hollins
Earl Cunningham
Ty Griffin
Mike Harkey
Marvelle Wynne
and Lester Lancaster
If Wrona’s on, I’m on. Easy.
It’s Lester Lacnaster you buffoon!
Sounds like a movie star!
I nominate Dick Ruthven, Dickie Noles, Keith Moreland (Zonk!), Bobby Dernier and Andre Dawson.
If you spell Dawson backwards you get nose wad! I love that!
What do you get if you spell Dave Otto’s last name backwards?
Otto? Hey! That’s freaking me out a little!
I’m a Cubs fan and a Bud man and when I get my hands on Bart Steveman I’m gonna ring his skinny little foul ball screwing up ass!
So long, everybody!
Stallone just missed out on being Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The great speech before the big battle in the third one would have been like this!
Sly as Aragorn: There will come a day when the courage of men fails! Yo, that ain’t today baby! Go for it! I am the law! Ayyyy-dreeee-annnnnnn!
Me, as Herb Brooks in "Miracle."
Ya, you ver bohn to play hoh-key! You ver meinen to be here! Dis es your tyme! Heil Hitler!"
Who can forget these gems:
C: Rick Wrona
1B: Steve Christmas
2B: Paul Noce
SS: Mike Brumley
3B: Wade Rowdon
OF: Chico Walker
OF: Gary Varsho
OF: Marvell Wynne
OF: Ced Landrum
C Tim Blackwell
1B Scott Thompson
2B Steve Macko (RIP)
SS Mike Brumley
3B Ken Reitz
LF Jesus Figueroa
CF Ty Waller
RF Steve Henderson
SP Dave Engel
RP Laddie Renfroe
Dammit, I demand respect!
How could anyone make a cubs mock-hall-of-fame list without me?
Dougie Dascenzo WAS a Hall of Famer. He strike out the great Pedro Guerrero once.
You stole my e-mail address!
I still hate you Dascenzo.
HOF? Try IHOP.
Ryne Sandberg is the greatest defensive second baseman of all time? No one who knows anything about the issue would ever say such a thing. It’s utterly ridiculous. Bill Mazeroski is easily the greatest second baseman of all time, and is probably the greatest defensive player ever, at any position. Sandberg was very good, but he wasn’t even close to being the best. I like visiting the site because there are some funny things to read, but you have to realize how sad and stupid it is to say things like that. Do you know anything about the issue? How do you know? Would like like to present even a modicum of evidence to support your very firm an confident claim as to Ryne’s unsurpassed greatness at second base? No? Oh, okay. Sportswriters do this every day, and it’s highly annoying that there are all those people reading it and just accepting it as true. I’m meeting as many dumb Cubs fans everyday as I am Sox fans, and that’s saying something.
Who pissed on Dan’s cornflakes this morning? I agree that there have been some dumb things said by Cubs fans (most of them by Mike Murphy of the Score who called Paul Molitor nothing more than a singles-hitting DH this morning).
But what evidence do you have that Mazeroski is the best defensive second baseman of all-time? Is it because of all the sportswriters who liked to bestow the honor on him during the 60s? Can you really compare Sandberg to Mazeroski across two eras? Sandberg had to play alongside the rotting corpse of Larry Bowa from 83 to 85 and then the green Shawon Dunston from 85 until about 1988 or so when he finally had his feet under him. (I suppose Dick Groat, Dick Schofield and Gene Alley weren’t much better).
Sandberg played FAR, FAR more games on Astroturf than Mazeroski did. Mazeroski played 163 games at second from 1970-1972 (1970 the Pirates split between Forbes and 3 Rivers). If I’m not mistaken, only Busch Stadium and the Astrodome had turf before then. Now, Forbes Field didn’t exactly have a well-manicured infied either, and maybe that explains Maz’s 204 errors in 2094 games at second base(compared to Sandberg’s 109 errors in 1,995 games at second base).
Sandberg averaged about .6 putouts and assists per game fewer than Mazeroski, although Sandberg had a stretch from 1983 until 1988 where the po&assist ratio stack up well against any stretch in Mazeroski’s career.
This "evidence" doesn’t do any disservice to Mazeroski, but they don’t necessarily put him head and shoulders above Sandberg either.
Of course, defense is so maddening for SABRweenies because it’s subjective.
So what evidence will you provide in favor of Mazeroski?
Dan, what the hell? You say its idiotic to make a statement like "Ryne Sandberg is the best 2nd baseman ever" and then follow it up with "Bill Mazerowski is easily the greatest 2nd baseman of all time, and probably the greatest defensive player ever, at any position". Well, what proof of this do you have? None, its an opinion, just like Dolan’s opinion on Sandberg. There’s no real way to compare them, since they played in different eras. Few of the people who frequent this site actually saw Mazerowski play (if any) and so to us, who saw Sandberg, he was the greatest defensive 2nd baseman who ever played. I won’t even address your contention that Maz was the greatest 2nd baseman EVER, but I will give you some credit, since you didn’t name Joe Morgan.
Well Dan, I have the best fielding percentage in history as a second baseman, and I have the longest consecutive errorless streak at second base, oh, and I played nearly two full seasons between throwing errors.
You want me to go on?
Dan, you’re an assclown.
Sandberg had Six (6) seasons with at least 500 assists, tying him with me for most seasons with at least 500 assists for second basemen.
To be fair, Maz had five such seasons but, last time I checked, 5 is still one fewer than 6.
Besides, Sandberg may be balding, but he still looks like he’s in pretty good shape, unlike Mazeroski whose shape bore a resemblance to Dennis Franz at his induction.
You’re right guys. I guess Sandberg is the greatest defensive 2Bman to ever play the game. Good work. Defense is difficult to measure, so yes, it is tough for us SABRweenies. But is isn’t subjective anymore, at least MOSTLY it isn’t. But a subjective element is something, I’ll give you that. So does that hurt my claim that Mazeroski is the greatest? It is a point FOR my argument, not against it. How many more non-Pirates fans and non-Pirate players say Mazeroski was the best, for their points of view, than non-Cubs fans and players say Sandberg was the best? All of them? Damn near all of them, anyway. 6 seasons of 500 assists as opposed to 5? That’s some really great evidence, Charlie Gehringer. Thanks for submitting. Maybe it’s the 550 more double plays in essentially the same number of innings as Sandberg that clouds the clear vision of fielding excellence that you guys have obtained. You’re Cubs fans. Of course you’re going to say Sandberg was the best. Because you’re idiots. So that’s 550 more DPs and 300 more assists for Mazeroski. But Sandberg’s incredible 6 seasons of that great and reknowned 500 assists total as opposed to Maz’s 5, that tells the whole story? Look, pitching staffs are a factor, home fields are a factor, and all that sort of thing, and this MIGHT help to make up for 300 less assists, but it doesn’t make up for 550 more DPs. Oh, but go ahead and say that it does-I’m sure you’ll find a way. Sandberg was really great, a fine fine fielder. Mazeroski was better. I say it, and the rest of the non-Cub world says it. But don’t listen to me–I didn’t see Mazeroski play! That means I’m not allowed to have a very confident and well-founded (and not to mention widely-held) opinion on the matter. Please.
Incidentally, I hate Joe Morgan because of what he’s done to what would have otherwise been enjoyable television-watching experiences. I think we can all share that sentiment. Also, he was an average fielder, I’m pretty sure.
I’m sure Dan would like to make a statement about Dusty Baker to get people off his back and onto mine.
It just won’t happen today.
Simply put, I’d place the reason Sandberg had fewer DPs squarely on Shawon Dunston than on anything else. Also, the Cubs staff recorded more strikeouts during Sandberg’s prime.
In 1983, Sandberg’s first season at 2B, he turned 126 Double Plays, 102 of them with 37-year-old Larry Bowa (that was Bowa’s best DP year since 1974). He turned 102 DPs in 1984, 64 of them with Bowa (the others with noted greats Tom Veryzer, Dave Owen and Dan Rohn). In 1985, Sandberg turned 99 DPs despite having a conglomeration of DP partners (Sandberg also played a game at short in 85 because of the flux; Dunston wasn’t quite ready, but Bowa was washed up).
From 86-91 and then again in 1997, Sandberg was paired with Dunston. The DP totals: 86, 84, 79, 80, 81 and 66. In 1992, Dunston was hurt and Sandberg turned 94 with the Rey Sanchez-Jose Vizcaino conglomrate at short. In 1993, SF’s Sandberg’s broken hand limited him to 115 games, limiting him to 76 double plays, a pace of 99 DPs over 150 games.
Sandberg came back to turn 82 DPs with Sanchez and Vizcaino in 1996, but his season with Dunston (and later Jose Hernandez, Manny Alexander and Sanchez) turned only 58 DPs in 126 games (about 69 over a 150 games).
That said, you’re right. Mazeroski’s DP totals are impressive. But I think Mazeroski was the best athlete ever! He completed all those DPs unassisted, right?
What people say about their peers is anecdotal. When people talk about the best ever, they tend to favor their own eras.
Well, I’m 28 years old, so that wasn’t my era. When I talk about the best ever, I don’t favor any era. Do you know how many people have said that Mazeroski was the greatest ever on the double play? Do you think those people were looking at the stats? No, they weren’t. I’m no Pirates fan, and I’m no fan of the 50’s and 60’s. I’m just someone who realizes that 550 double plays more than makes up for the difference in fielding percentage, which A, isn’t that big of a difference, and B, isn’t a particularly good measure of a second baseman in the first place. I suppose it was all Gene Alley though, right? Give me a break. I can’t believe you’re even arguing about this! By the way, Mazeroski had a season with 498 assists and one with 496. Those 6 extra plays mean so much! How about this? http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~rickert/BB/maz.html
"Mazeroski’s defensive statistics are probably the best of any player in baseball history, at any position. Intuitively, that seems like a Hall of Famer." — Bill James
Total Baseball ranks Mazeroski as the top defensive second baseman in history. Those crazy SABRweenies!
Honesty compels me to say that Dan is right. SABRmetrics rule. Only Bill James (and me) would rank Craig Biggio as the 35th best player of all-time!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/2001-11-21/2001-11-21-cover.htm
Thanks Chip! And of course, since James rated Biggio as 35th all time, it must mean that you can’t believe ANYTHING James says or has ever said, no matter how much sense it makes! It’s true-In order to find any authority on the subject we have to find a source who has never made a bad decision or faulty claim based on specious logic. So even though Bill James might know more about baseball than any person on Earth, we have to dismiss his evaluation of Bill Mazeroski’s defense as the rantings of a lunatic. My bad, Chip!
From Chip’s link:
"He sees Biggio as a great and underappreciated player, but what really counts is that the Win Shares system agrees. James spent years developing the system, and one can rest assured he had loftier goals than to gerrymander a statistical excuse to exalt the Astros’ leadoff hitter. It just so happened that in the case of Biggio, the results of the Win Shares analysis confirmed his gut instinct — and, perhaps, clashed with everyone else’s."
Fine, I’ll settle this. The greatest defensive second baseman of all time was Joey Cora.
Thanks for the spirited defense Dan, now quit while you’re ahead. I need a nap.
Also from Chippy’s link:
James doesn’t dispute that Maz’s glove was second to none; his only objection is that its impact might have been overestimated. While it’s true that Mazeroski handled an incredible number of assists — hundreds more than Randolph — James says it doesn’t necessarily mean that Maz got to hundreds of balls that Randolph wouldn’t have.
"In some ways, raw defensive stats overstate the difference between players," he says. In the case of Mazeroski, the reason for the overstatement was simple: "The Pirates, for most of Mazeroski’s career, had a pitching staff that produced a lot of ground balls."
With the proper adjustments, James explains, Maz remains No. 1 (or close to it), but no longer laps the competition by a ridiculous margin. After that adjustment, it’s clear that his total contributions were, on balance, certainly no more valuable than those of, say, Randolph’s.
How can we discuss both the most deserving ex-cub not in the Hall of Fame, and the best second baseman of all time, without my name coming up?
check post 51, Manny. Of course your name comes up!
I wasn’t too bad during my abbreviated major league career. In fact, if you project my career over Maz’s 2094 games at second base, I turned 1699 double plays, had 5,254 put outs, 5,730 assists and committed 190 errors.
Of course, I am not caucasian, and I’m dead.
Hell, maybe I was the best defensive player of all time. I played all 4 infield positions and the outfield.
Not only did Jackie play a bunch of positions, he played them all extremely well. As a third baseman he was the greatet of all time in defensive win shares per 1000 innings. Jackie may have been better than Maz, in terms of skill. I do not know. I would actually go along with that, if you wanted to argue it that way. I’m talking about the player whose combination of peak performance and career totals make him the best. That is Bill Mazeroski. If Jackie played longer and played second the whole time, I very well could be saying he is the best. He was a great great player. Also, I fully agree that Mazeroski’s DP numbers are inflated by the staff of the Pirates while he was playing. He’s still the best, which means he’s better than your lover boy Sandberg.
Yeah, if I only played longer. It had nothing to do with the fact that they didn’t let my kind into the bigs until I was 28?
I don’t get your point, Jackie. Are we in argument or in agreement? I can’t tell.
Oh my God! Will somebody construct me so Dan will have someone to talk at more readily?
You’re telling me you understand Jackie Robinson’s last post? It makes no sense! Explain it to me…
You said Bill Mazeroski was "easily" the greatest defensive second baseman of all time. I’m contending that I, Jackie Robinson, was arguably better or at least as good defensively. And I think the statistics confirm this. You give a lukewarm endorsement, but then said, "but Mazeroski played longer."
Mazeroski broke into the big leagues at 19, partly because he didn’t need to break the Polish barrier in baseball.
I got my shot in 1947 (If baseball wasn’t racist, I would have played sooner) at age 28, and I, like Ron Santo, was diabetic. (I did not wear a rug though).
I also find it hard to concentrate on playing good D when some opponents are trying a little extra harder to take the negro out, and some fans are shouting their displeasure at my black face out there.
I also was a better hitter than Mazeroski, who still deserves that plaque in Cooperstown.
You’ll notice that Frank White, Willie Randolph, Jose Lind, Roberto Alomar and Ryne Sandberg all have impressive defensive numbers. But someone said "Statistics are like bikinis. They reveal a lot, but they hide what’s essential."
If you play for a team with a lousy catcher or a pitching staff who cares little about holding runners on first base, a ground ball to the second baseman might mean only one out, because the guy on first had taken a 45-foot lead.
If you play in an infield with long grass, some ground balls get hit slower and dps go to die.
If you play the 1980s-era St. Louis Cardinals, which emphasized speed, 18 times a year double plays become harder to come by.
Everybody knows that the only reason Jackie Robinson was good was because like negroids of that era his sickle cells were much more anemic than mine.
Cheater!
Why doesn’t anybody just tell the truth about Mazeroski turning more DPs than Sandberg? I was the pitching coach three different times during Sandberg’s time in Chicago and I can tell you this…our pitching sucked ass. It’s hard to turn a DP when the ball is rattling around in the vines.
Jackie, please don’t bring up hitting. I never said a thing about hitting. You’re doing it to give the illusion that it is somehow bolstering your argument. It’s just that the argument was never about hitting. And I never said Mazeroski was better because he played longer. I said that we measure players using a combination of their peak values and their longevity. Isn’t that the only way to do it? Are we talking about who the greatest defensive player to ever play walk out to second base and play some games? If so, we’re only going by peak value. You could make a good argument that it’s you, Jackie, I agree, but that’s not the way we measure ball players, and it never has been. If it were, we might all be saying that the greatest second baseman ever was Glenn Hubbard or Jose Lind. All you have to do is say that he was better than Jackie or Mazeroski AT HIS VERY BEST. No one says that Pedro is the greatest pitcher of all time. When it’s all said and done, he will not have contributed to his teams as much as, say, Roger Clemens did. Or Walter Johnson. Or Cy Young. But Pedro is pretty clearly the greatest pitcher to ever step onto the hill. At his best, he’s better than anyone. Come to think of it, since service time isn’t an issue, I’ll go with Eric Gagne. So back to the point–I’m more than willing to make an adjustment for the fact that you weren’t allowed to play until you were 28, so hell, maybe you were the best second baseman of all time. WHICH IS WHAT, I THINK, I ALREADY AGREED ON BEFORE YOU STARTED MAKING INEXPLICABLY ARGUMENTATIVE POSTS. Here is what I wrote BEFORE those befuddling posts of yours:
"Not only did Jackie play a bunch of positions, he played them all extremely well. As a third baseman he was the greatet of all time in defensive win shares per 1000 innings. Jackie may have been better than Maz, in terms of skill. I do not know. I would actually go along with that, if you wanted to argue it that way. I’m talking about the player whose combination of peak performance and career totals make him the best. That is Bill Mazeroski. If Jackie played longer and played second the whole time, I very well could be saying he is the best. He was a great great player."
We’re not even arguing about the same thing. That being said, I was even christian enough to gracefully give your point its due. Now get off my back. You were an awesome player, quite possibly the best to ever walk out to the second base position.
This is all silly, Dan. No one is qualified to make such a judgment unless he has been able to watch every single second baseman ever play at least 100 times.
Okay, so I guess Ryne Sandberg is the greatest defensive second baseman to ever. After all, Andy Dolan had beer and was able to watch him a hundred times. My mistake! What if my dad was able to have beer, watch Maz at least 100 times, and say that he was the best. Does that hold up to Andy’s claim? I’m sure someone watched Maz play a hundred times and thinks he was the greatest ever. This is evidenced by the fact that more people said that about Maz than about any other second baseman in history. Some of them must have had some beer too, right?
And furthermore, who gives a damn what someone SAYS about Ryne Sandberg? It’s subjective. He’s a Cubs fan. Can you recognize the cause and effect here? People will say a lot of stupid crap, and it doesn’t mean anything unless they have something to back it up. It’s in the statistics. People will SWEAR, just swear on their life that Robby Alomar is the best second baseman of all time because that’s what they "saw". They’ll tell you about how great Jeter is. Usually, they’re Yankees fans. How can that mean anything? It’s only part of the argument, this subjective measure. It only begins to mean something if tons of people are saying it. Go ahead and look it up, if it means something to you, and of you think the statistics don’t tell most of the story. Look up Mazeroski and Sandberg, and see how many people you can find that say Sandberg was the best, as compared to Maz. Mostly Cubs fans, right? Sandberg was great. Mazeroski was the best. I don’t know why anyone is arguing at this point. I know I know, I’m belaboring the point, and I won’t shut up. That’s because no one else will shut up either. They want to hang on. "I’m not letting this jerk get away with saying Sandberg wasn’t the best! I won’t have it!" I might be annoying, but I’m right. No one will say it though. Say it, you jerks!
Daaaannnnn,
Medication time.
Medication time, Danny.
Medication time.
Dan, I think "Jim Tocco" was simply a facetious way of ending the argument. The great play-by-play announcer of the Lansing Lugnuts contended that one had to watch a player play 100 times before being able to judge said player’s talent.
My objection is not that you would have the gall to find Mazeroski the best second baseman ever. You’re right; it’s a widely-held and well backed-up argument. I simply took issue with you going nuts on a statement that someone would call Sandberg the best defensive player ever since he didn’t provide any evidence for your edification.
I don’t get excited about fielding statistics; I feel defense is by far the most difficult aspect of the game to track.
I’ll give you 550 more DPs than Sandberg indicates better performance.
But how many DP opportunites did Mazeroski have (runner on 1st, 1 out or fewer, hitter not Vince Coleman or Maury Wills-type, runner not running on the pitch) than Sandberg?
Did hitters in the 60s give themselves up by hitting to the right side of the infield more than in the 80s?
Listen, I don’t want to continue this argument, so I will concede that Mazeroski must be included in any conversation about infield defense. Statistically, he’s the best. Looking at baseball players statistically is like looking at economic theories; you’re assuming the player performs in a vacuum and other factors wouldn’t change his performance. In some cases, other factors could affect his performance significantly.
I’m not convinced Sandberg’s the best ever. An argument could be made in his favor, as well as in favor of Jackie Robinson, Nap Lajoie, and Frank White. Some even contend Roberto Alomar was the best in his prime (he’s certainly not the best now). Regardless, I agree Mazeroski should’ve been in long before he was inducted, and you agree Sandberg was a great player and merits induction.
At any rate, cheers, and you did make some great points. Don’t take things so personally. Thanks for giving me a diversion at work!
Thanks, TJ. I’m not taking things personally. I don’t care that much.
But-BUT, my friend-I’m not a dope that just says 1700 DPs is 1700 DPs and that’s that. I am avid reader of Bill James, and Mr. James has a great way of figuring out, based on factors like the grounball tendencies of the pitching staff, the general suckiness of the pitching staff (more guys on first base), and the ratio of flyball outs to ground ball assists, how many double plays a team "should" have turned. Actually, Bill James is not the only one who has done this, of course, but his version is the one with which I am most familiar. It’s hypothetical, I know, but it’s not like you’re going to get totally screwy numbers. It rates bad middle infielders (Andujar Cedeno, Derek Jeter) badly, and it rates great ones (Maz, Joe Gordon) well. Anyway, the Pirates astronomical number of DPs over expected coincide directly with the years Maz played there. This happens with Joe Gordon, Trammell and Whitaker, etc etc. Maz was expected to turn a lot of DPs because of the tendencies of his staff. Well, he turned a lot and then some. Quite a few more actually, something like 20some more per season than expected. 550 more than Sandberg? Okay, maybe it was more like 400 more. He’s still the best. I’m not an idiot, and I make this hostile statement for two reasons: One, it should be obvious by now that you are not talking about stats to some moron Lugnut, and two, I recognize that Jim Tocco was being fecetious (though I don’t know the story of the Lugnut guy). I retorted anyway because plenty of people actually believe crap like that, and I’m in no mood to get jokey about it. If I wanted a laugh I would go to a site featuring actual funny people, fundamentally witty ones who don’t rely on an endless series bad inside jokes and puerile blabbering. Say it: Dan, you are a jerk but you’re right. Say it!
Holy crap.
"Okay, so I guess Ryne Sandberg is the greatest defensive second baseman to ever. After all, Andy Dolan had beer and was able to watch him a hundred times. My mistake! What if my dad was able to have beer, watch Maz at least 100 times, and say that he was the best. Does that hold up to Andy’s claim?"
I’m enjoying this discussion very much, though it’s been very loooong. I’m not sure why I "had beer" and saw Sandberg play 100 times.
But Dan, you’re right when you say "who cares" if I think he’s the best defensive second baseman of all time. I said today that Angie Everhart’s the best looking redhead in the world. I was hoping that would start a similar discussion with many posts of photos of a nearly naked Angie Everhart (as long as Mickey Rourke isn’t in any of them.)
I’m basing my claim on Sandberg having the highest fielding percentage of any second baseman ever, the longest consecutive errorless streak of any second baseman ever and the incredible run where he went two seasons without a throwing error.
I never saw Bill Mazeroski play, obviously, since I’m not in my 50s, and the fact that I could give a rat’s ass about him since he was a Pirate admittedly puts a big hole in my argument.
How about I just do this? Ryne Sandberg is the best defensive second baseman I’ve ever seen.
And remember, the doctor says you can cut the Prozac in half if they make you too jumpy.
Oh, all this yelling and screaming about second basemen!
Calgon, take me away!
Ahh, much better.
Dan,
Call me.
Dan,
Here’s the lowdown about me.
https://www.desipio.com/archives/00000207.htm
Who cares what my doctor SAYS, Andy? I need imperical proof. I’ll need to see a prescription.
"Best I’ve ever seen." That’s better. I think more people need to say things that way. Sandberg was awesome. The throwing error thing is pretty amazing, though I’m not sure how many difficult throws Sandberg attempted compared to other second basemen. He certainly didn’t have a reputation as an acrobatic fielder. It might be sort of like Joe Dimaggio never getting thrown out going from 1st to 3rd. That’s a neat little tidbit, except I’m pretty sure that, if you’re a really really great baserunner, getting thrown out at 3rd once in a while is worth it. In any case, my point is that the extra double plays more than make up for the lack of errors. I know you don’t want to hear about this guy, but Jose Valentin gets a bad rap for booting a lot of grounders, but the fact it that he pretty much makes up for it by having a very good arm and by the fact that he just gets to a lot of grounders. I’m no White Sox fan, just so you know. I hate the goddamn Wite Sox. They threw the World Series and besides, I’m a Tigers fan. Maybe that’s why my cornflakes tasted like piss this morning.
Please write more things to get Dan started. I think that he writes well, marshalls his facts well, argues them well, and he is entertaining. I saw Mazeroski and Sandburg play. That doesn’t qualify me to say that either of them was the greatest ever. There are a whole lot of second basemen whom I never saw play. Nonetheless, it is clear to me that Michael Jordan was the greatest all around basketball player in history.
I certainly won’t argue about that. He’s one of the all-time great Washington Wizards.
By the way, I didn’t see Mazeroski play, but I did see part of his Hall of Fame induction speech. One of the best crying jags ever, along with Mike Schmidt’s retirement press conference.
This is a mistake which I seem to make eternally, that I imagine the sufferings of others as far greater than they really are. Ever since my childhood, the proposition ‘my greatest dangers lie in pity’ has been confirmed again and again. by texas hold’em
Good-looking site. Congratulations.