Pollyellon banned me

[Gilgamesh]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

This is the problem with using SBox memes on Desipio.

[Eli]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

This is the problem with using SBox memes on Desipio.

That's one of them, at least.

[Bort]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

This is the problem with using SBox memes on Desipio.

Which is why we only make fun of Yeti for his pedophilia here, not his barely submerged homosexual urges.

[J. Walter Weatherman]

I don't get it...didn't you just rip on Blake Dewitt's power.

And now we're moving him to third base?

Yes, I did indeed. Fagstats indicate that he's decently better at 3B (with an admittedly smaller sample size than 2B). Positional adjustments are the same for 2B and 3B, so, yea. Move the new (but hated infinitely less) Ryan Theriot over there. I'm good with it.

Who plays second?

Is Hak-Ju Lee making the jump straight from Peoria and bumping Starlin from short?

Speaking of Lee, I saw him this weekend down at the Chiefs game.  He looked competent at short, but he needs to work on his offense.  He is not ready for the bigs yet.  Probably a Fall League, Spring Training and then AA or AAA assignment, then he'll be good to go.

.284/.358/.359/.718 this year in A ball probably means you're right.

His .075 ISO is positively Theriot-esque.

[R-V]

I don't get it...didn't you just rip on Blake Dewitt's power.

And now we're moving him to third base?

Yes, I did indeed. Fagstats indicate that he's decently better at 3B (with an admittedly smaller sample size than 2B). Positional adjustments are the same for 2B and 3B, so, yea. Move the new (but hated infinitely less) Ryan Theriot over there. I'm good with it.

Who plays second?

Is Hak-Ju Lee making the jump straight from Peoria and bumping Starlin from short?

I mentioned that Thomas guy at 2nd in Double-A. The main point is that with Vitters being a couple years away (or possibly being a bust), the Cubs are deeper at the middle infield in the farm system, and I'm sure they can find someone from the minors to do the position well. I was hearing some good things about Darwin Barney, but then I noticed he was batting .295ish but has a lifetime OPS of just around .700. I just feel they can promote someone from within to take second and do it well (provided Ramirez going to first is even in their thoughts).

Back to Dewitt - you're serious about him being an everyday 3rd baseman?

What's your contention to it?

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

[Yeti]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

[Saul Goodman]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

In the abstract, it was a BC-style argument.

[Kermit IV]

Blake DeWitt is BAD. Let's talk about something else.

Like how bad Darwin Barney is, too?  It appears the Cubs are stocked with Theriot-esque middle infield prospects.

[R-V]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

[Internet Apex]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

The short answer is yes.

[Oleg]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

Couldn't one make the argument (in the abstract) about Chase Utley being out for a large chunk of time?

[Yeti]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

The best information I was able to find was Faggraphs leaders pages:
Third
Second
And my average was eying it as opposed to trying to average the wOBA numbers listed since they all don't have the same amount of plate appearances. However, since it factors in "Qualified Players" only (I'm guessing the 3.1 PA/game qualification), Omar was actually not factored in.
Also, if I were to do an average of the numbers (not perfect but it's something) it would give me this:

3B 2010 wOBA Average: .339
2B 2010 wOBA Average: .331

Although DeWitt doesn't fit the "traditional" third baseman by being a 25HR/120RBI kind of guy, that doesn't mean he can't play 3rd. I would say in almost all situations, you don't put someone in a position because of what his offensive prowess indicates. It should be based solely off of their defense. Sure, there are positions like 1B (where .900 OPS guys grow on trees) that are traditionally power positions, but that speaks to the fact that first base defense is relatively insignificant, and you can stick fat fucks who can't field any other position there, like Prince or Dunn

[R-V]

EDIT: Waits patiently for the BC-style "HIS OFFENSE PROJECTS BETTER AT SECOND THAN THIRD" argument.

Why is that a BC-style argument? 

I actually would trade Byrd, start Colvin in CF and Nady in RF for the rest of the year... See if Nady could work out for next season in RF    
Byrd's trade value will never be higher than it is now
Colvin's projected numbers certainly fit better in CF
I think he'll end up being a .275/20-25 HR kind of guy
The average RF is going to be better than the average CF, offensively
So, as long as you aren't losing a ton defensively, .275/25 looks better in CF than it does in RF
Let me rephrase... Let's say the average RF hits .260/15 and the average CF hits .250/10...
if you have someone that hits better than both those averages, and you aren't losing a ton offensively, then if you can find a league average guy for RF it is best to play the .275/25 guy in CF
*and you aren't losing a ton DEFENSIVELY
Would you rather have two guys hitting .240/10 and .275/25 or .260/15 and .275/25?
in the abstract, saying that .240/10 and .260/15 is the average CF and RF
I don't know, just giving it a number for sake of discussion Pen (in response to where he's getting the numbers)
the point isn't that Colvin hits like a CF, it is that he hits much better than the average CF
but not as much better than the average RF
And wouldn't you say we don't know how good a CF Colvin can be yet?

Maybe the game has passed me by and the average third baseman is now an interchangeable banjo-hitting slapdick with the average second baseman. I would honestly be surprised if that was the case. If I was savvy enough to find this I would, but what's the OPS+ for a replacement-level 3B vs. a replacement level 2B over the last few years?

eh, I'm not sure where to find it, but according to wOBA for this year, it looks like the average wOBA for 3B is probably .010-.020 points higher this year than 2B.

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

The best information I was able to find was Faggraphs leaders pages:
Third
Second
And my average was eying it as opposed to trying to average the wOBA numbers listed since they all don't have the same amount of plate appearances. However, since it factors in "Qualified Players" only (I'm guessing the 3.1 PA/game qualification), Omar was actually not factored in.
Also, if I were to do an average of the numbers (not perfect but it's something) it would give me this:

3B 2010 wOBA Average: .339
2B 2010 wOBA Average: .331

Although DeWitt doesn't fit the "traditional" third baseman by being a 25HR/120RBI kind of guy, that doesn't mean he can't play 3rd. I would say in almost all situations, you don't put someone in a position because of what his offensive prowess indicates. It should be based solely off of their defense. Sure, there are positions like 1B (where .900 OPS guys grow on trees) that are traditionally power positions, but that speaks to the fact that first base defense is relatively insignificant, and you can stick fat fucks who can't field any other position there, like Prince or Dunn

Are you basing your assertion that Dewitt is a good defensive 3B on 109 games worth of UZR? If I remember correctly don't you need a 2 or 3 season sample size for UZR to be worth a shit? Or are there scouting reports that support that he's actually good at third?

My overall point is that IF Dewitt is a great defensive third baseman and IF you have a Chase Utley or a Robinson Cano providing way above average production at 2nd, then you'd consider the move. But I'm guessing we'll all be dead by the time the Cubs have another outstanding offensive second baseman.

[Eli]

I can't even remember why we're talking about moving Dewitt to third base. What's the point?  If the dude isn't starting at second base, he can come off the bench.  There's no reason that a team with a $160 million payroll should be stretching to find a way to fit Blake Dewitt's bat into its lineup.

[Yeti]

Are those numbers skewed by the fact that Omar Vizquel (and his negative one million wOBA) has been the White Sox regular 3rd baseman for a good chunk of the season?

The best information I was able to find was Faggraphs leaders pages:
Third
Second
And my average was eying it as opposed to trying to average the wOBA numbers listed since they all don't have the same amount of plate appearances. However, since it factors in "Qualified Players" only (I'm guessing the 3.1 PA/game qualification), Omar was actually not factored in.
Also, if I were to do an average of the numbers (not perfect but it's something) it would give me this:

3B 2010 wOBA Average: .339
2B 2010 wOBA Average: .331

Although DeWitt doesn't fit the "traditional" third baseman by being a 25HR/120RBI kind of guy, that doesn't mean he can't play 3rd. I would say in almost all situations, you don't put someone in a position because of what his offensive prowess indicates. It should be based solely off of their defense. Sure, there are positions like 1B (where .900 OPS guys grow on trees) that are traditionally power positions, but that speaks to the fact that first base defense is relatively insignificant, and you can stick fat fucks who can't field any other position there, like Prince or Dunn

Are you basing your assertion that Dewitt is a good defensive 3B on 109 games worth of UZR? If I remember correctly don't you need a 2 or 3 season sample size for UZR to be worth a shit? Or are there scouting reports that support that he's actually good at third?

My overall point is that IF Dewitt is a great defensive third baseman and IF you have a Chase Utley or a Robinson Cano providing way above average production at 2nd, then you'd consider the move. But I'm guessing we'll all be dead by the time the Cubs have another outstanding offensive second baseman.

I got it from UZR, which I said at the time did have a very small sample size. DeWitt, however, was mainly a third basemen in the minors and was moved from there based off of the Dodgers' needs at the time. I read somewhere (might have been here maybe) that DeWitt said he was still "learning second base" so you can tell third is his where he's comfortable.

Next year is weird for the Cubs in my opinion. I know they want to shed salary but try to compete. That will be very tough. Now, if they keep the salary the same and just retool certain things (like sign Dunn and other moves I haven't tried to look at yet), then maybe they can compete. However, my assumption is that if they were to entertain the Ramirez to first idea, then they are trying to minimize salary next year and look towards 2012 as their year to try to be really competitive again. From there, the reason you would do this move (Ramirez->1st, DeWitt->3rd) is mainly because your farm system is deeper in the middle infield than the corner infield spots (unless HOFF comes back up, of course). And yes, many of those guys down there are Theriots at the plate, but if they're Castros defensively, they'll be serviceable.

I can't even remember why we're talking about moving Dewitt to third base. What's the point?  If the dude isn't starting at second base, he can come off the bench.  There's no reason that a team with a $160 million payroll should be stretching to find a way to fit Blake Dewitt's bat into its lineup.

We can blame it on Bonk hating Dunn