The Atheist Communist Caliphate Made Flesh, Spread the Clusterfuck Around Thread

[Quality Start Machine]

It's more about the development of ways to make darker colors reflect the infrared spectrum...

To where?  I'm not getting the energy balance here.

To somewhere where it won't encourage people to crank up their car AC.

Possibly "anywhere but the car itself."

What a waste of time. If they could relieve traffic congestion in LA it would be far better than resurfacing cars... how much could it cost to get everyone using jetpacks? That's where teh focus should be. The future.

BH, I'll have you know I will be running for President in 2012 on the "Where's My Jetson's Shit?" platform.

I don't care if you're a Crypto-Anrcho-Communist, I'd vote for you on that platform.

I'd be happy with the Jetsons' doorbell.

[CT III]

It's more about the development of ways to make darker colors reflect the infrared spectrum...

To where?  I'm not getting the energy balance here.

To somewhere where it won't encourage people to crank up their car AC.

Possibly "anywhere but the car itself."

What a waste of time. If they could relieve traffic congestion in LA it would be far better than resurfacing cars... how much could it cost to get everyone using jetpacks? That's where teh focus should be. The future.

BH, I'll have you know I will be running for President in 2012 on the "Where's My Jetson's Shit?" platform.

I don't care if you're a Crypto-Anrcho-Communist, I'd vote for you on that platform.

I'd be happy with the Jetsons' doorbell.

I'd like my talking dog sans speech impediment, however.

[CBStew]

I didn't want to start a new thread about this.  It is kind of a local issue, but in a way it isn't.  As you have undoutedly heard, 4 cops here in Oakland were killed by a parolee who had an assault weapon.  My wife, who is a caterer, was asked by the mother of one of the cops to plan for a memorial which took place yesterday.  She was told to expect 200, but over 500 showed up.  Today there will be a public memorial at the coliseum complex where the Raiders, A's and the Warriors play.  Tens of thousands of people are showing up as I write.  Yet, believe it or not, two days ago there was a demonstration "honoring" the killer, and condeming the Oakland Police, tying it in with the shooting of a person on New Years Eve by a Transit cop, not an Oakland cop.  What can I say?  It takes all kinds.

[morpheus]

I didn't want to start a new thread about this.  It is kind of a local issue, but in a way it isn't.  As you have undoutedly heard, 4 cops here in Oakland were killed by a parolee who had an assault weapon.  My wife, who is a caterer, was asked by the mother of one of the cops to plan for a memorial which took place yesterday.  She was told to expect 200, but over 500 showed up.  Today there will be a public memorial at the coliseum complex where the Raiders, A's and the Warriors play.  Tens of thousands of people are showing up as I write.  Yet, believe it or not, two days ago there was a demonstration "honoring" the killer, and condeming the Oakland Police, tying it in with the shooting of a person on New Years Eve by a Transit cop, not an Oakland cop.  What can I say?  It takes all kinds.

http://cbs13.com/local/vigil.shooting.suspect.2.968035.html  Unbelievable.  The guy kills four policemen after a traffic stop and somehow it's the cops' fault?  On a brighter note, it is awesome to see an outpouring of support for the policemen like that observed by your wife.

[RV]

Steve Chapman with a good take on an area of spending that never seems to get a mention from the fiscal responsibility gang.

The real question is not why Obama wants to spend so little on defense but why he wants to spend so much. Since 2001, our military outlays have soared by 40 percent, after adjusting for inflation. And that's not counting the costs of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Brownie]

Steve Chapman with a good take on an area of spending that never seems to get a mention from the fiscal responsibility gang.

The real question is not why Obama wants to spend so little on defense but why he wants to spend so much. Since 2001, our military outlays have soared by 40 percent, after adjusting for inflation. And that's not counting the costs of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That's a great read. I think defense should always be the top priority of a government. But our DoD has become a center of waste and abuse. I'll argue that some past increases in defense were necessary, but we could have been more efficient this decade. Interestingly enough, that was what Rumsfeld was brought in to do.

[RV]

Steve Chapman sums it up nicely again.

Torture ought to be unacceptable even if it's effective--just as threatening to kill a criminal's children would be unthinkable even if necessary to prevent a terrible crime. But if it doesn't work, it's not only unacceptable but pointless.

His comments refer to this article...

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

[Andy]

Steve Chapman, we have Jack Bauer on line 2.

No, wait, he's in the air duct above your office.  You might want to run.

[morpheus]

Steve Chapman sums it up nicely again.

Torture ought to be unacceptable even if it's effective--just as threatening to kill a criminal's children would be unthinkable even if necessary to prevent a terrible crime. But if it doesn't work, it's not only unacceptable but pointless.

His comments refer to this article...

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

Chapman relies on the WaPo article to make his points... and the WaPo article is full of misinformation and misleading assertions.  One example: Zubaida's interrogations led to the capture of Jose Padilla, which the WaPo dismisses as some sort of phantom or false alarm.  I guess capturing a guy who had trained in al-Qaeda camps, who was in fact plotting to carry out terrorist acts, and who was tight with Khalid Shekih Mohammed and other al-Qaeda top figures was a "phantom."  Tell that to Deputy Attorney General James Comey.  http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/azizDOJ_PadillaLink.pdf

On May the 8th of 2002, a soldier of our enemy, a trained, funded and equipped terrorist, stepped off that plane at Chicago's O'Hare; a highly trained al Qaeda soldier who had accepted an assignment to kill hundreds of innocent men, women and children by destroying apartment buildings; an al Qaeda soldier who still hoped and planned to do even more by detonating a radiological device, a dirty bomb, in this country; an al Qaeda soldier who was trusted enough to spend hour after hour with the leaders of al Qaeda: Mohammed Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; an al Qaeda soldier who had vital information about our enemy and its plans; and lastly an al Qaeda soldier who, as an American citizen, was free to move in, within and out of this country.

[oog]

Then read an article that is more comprehensive:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22530

[RV]

Steve Chapman sums it up nicely again.

Torture ought to be unacceptable even if it's effective--just as threatening to kill a criminal's children would be unthinkable even if necessary to prevent a terrible crime. But if it doesn't work, it's not only unacceptable but pointless.

His comments refer to this article...

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

Chapman relies on the WaPo article to make his points... and the WaPo article is full of misinformation and misleading assertions.  One example: Zubaida's interrogations led to the capture of Jose Padilla, which the WaPo dismisses as some sort of phantom or false alarm.  I guess capturing a guy who had trained in al-Qaeda camps, who was in fact plotting to carry out terrorist acts, and who was tight with Khalid Shekih Mohammed and other al-Qaeda top figures was a "phantom."  Tell that to Deputy Attorney General James Comey.  http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/azizDOJ_PadillaLink.pdf

On May the 8th of 2002, a soldier of our enemy, a trained, funded and equipped terrorist, stepped off that plane at Chicago's O'Hare; a highly trained al Qaeda soldier who had accepted an assignment to kill hundreds of innocent men, women and children by destroying apartment buildings; an al Qaeda soldier who still hoped and planned to do even more by detonating a radiological device, a dirty bomb, in this country; an al Qaeda soldier who was trusted enough to spend hour after hour with the leaders of al Qaeda: Mohammed Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; an al Qaeda soldier who had vital information about our enemy and its plans; and lastly an al Qaeda soldier who, as an American citizen, was free to move in, within and out of this country.

Far be it from me to question the assertions of the Bush DOJ, but if Zubaida's statement that Padilla intended to detonate a dirty bomb was confirmed by "multiple independent and corroborating sources" as Ashcroft claimed, why was the dirty bomb plot never mentioned in the government's charges against Padilla? And the fact that Zubaida wasn't used as a witness in the trial against Padilla doesn't exactly speak to his reliability.

[morpheus]

Steve Chapman sums it up nicely again.

Torture ought to be unacceptable even if it's effective--just as threatening to kill a criminal's children would be unthinkable even if necessary to prevent a terrible crime. But if it doesn't work, it's not only unacceptable but pointless.

His comments refer to this article...

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

Chapman relies on the WaPo article to make his points... and the WaPo article is full of misinformation and misleading assertions.  One example: Zubaida's interrogations led to the capture of Jose Padilla, which the WaPo dismisses as some sort of phantom or false alarm.  I guess capturing a guy who had trained in al-Qaeda camps, who was in fact plotting to carry out terrorist acts, and who was tight with Khalid Shekih Mohammed and other al-Qaeda top figures was a "phantom."  Tell that to Deputy Attorney General James Comey.  http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/azizDOJ_PadillaLink.pdf

On May the 8th of 2002, a soldier of our enemy, a trained, funded and equipped terrorist, stepped off that plane at Chicago's O'Hare; a highly trained al Qaeda soldier who had accepted an assignment to kill hundreds of innocent men, women and children by destroying apartment buildings; an al Qaeda soldier who still hoped and planned to do even more by detonating a radiological device, a dirty bomb, in this country; an al Qaeda soldier who was trusted enough to spend hour after hour with the leaders of al Qaeda: Mohammed Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; an al Qaeda soldier who had vital information about our enemy and its plans; and lastly an al Qaeda soldier who, as an American citizen, was free to move in, within and out of this country.

Far be it from me to question the assertions of the Bush DOJ, but if Zubaida's statement that Padilla intended to detonate a dirty bomb was confirmed by "multiple independent and corroborating sources" as Ashcroft claimed, why was the dirty bomb plot never mentioned in the government's charges against Padilla? And the fact that Zubaida wasn't used as a witness in the trial against Padilla doesn't exactly speak to his reliability.

Ah.  Padilla's just a regular Joe.  I get it now.

[MAD]

Steve Chapman sums it up nicely again.

Torture ought to be unacceptable even if it's effective--just as threatening to kill a criminal's children would be unthinkable even if necessary to prevent a terrible crime. But if it doesn't work, it's not only unacceptable but pointless.

His comments refer to this article...

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

Chapman relies on the WaPo article to make his points... and the WaPo article is full of misinformation and misleading assertions.  One example: Zubaida's interrogations led to the capture of Jose Padilla, which the WaPo dismisses as some sort of phantom or false alarm.  I guess capturing a guy who had trained in al-Qaeda camps, who was in fact plotting to carry out terrorist acts, and who was tight with Khalid Shekih Mohammed and other al-Qaeda top figures was a "phantom."  Tell that to Deputy Attorney General James Comey.  http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/azizDOJ_PadillaLink.pdf

On May the 8th of 2002, a soldier of our enemy, a trained, funded and equipped terrorist, stepped off that plane at Chicago's O'Hare; a highly trained al Qaeda soldier who had accepted an assignment to kill hundreds of innocent men, women and children by destroying apartment buildings; an al Qaeda soldier who still hoped and planned to do even more by detonating a radiological device, a dirty bomb, in this country; an al Qaeda soldier who was trusted enough to spend hour after hour with the leaders of al Qaeda: Mohammed Atef, Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; an al Qaeda soldier who had vital information about our enemy and its plans; and lastly an al Qaeda soldier who, as an American citizen, was free to move in, within and out of this country.

Far be it from me to question the assertions of the Bush DOJ, but if Zubaida's statement that Padilla intended to detonate a dirty bomb was confirmed by "multiple independent and corroborating sources" as Ashcroft claimed, why was the dirty bomb plot never mentioned in the government's charges against Padilla? And the fact that Zubaida wasn't used as a witness in the trial against Padilla doesn't exactly speak to his reliability.

Ah.  Padilla's just a regular Joe.  I get it now.

Friend of mine who grew up in the Hermosa neighborhood was familair with Padilla growing up.  Told me he once "stabbed a Mexican to death in the alley." 

That's all I got.  Carry on.

[Chuck to Chuck]

Far be it from me to question the assertions of the Bush DOJ, but if Zubaida's statement that Padilla intended to detonate a dirty bomb was confirmed by "multiple independent and corroborating sources" as Ashcroft claimed, why was the dirty bomb plot never mentioned in the government's charges against Padilla? And the fact that Zubaida wasn't used as a witness in the trial against Padilla doesn't exactly speak to his reliability.

Ah.  Padilla's just a regular Joe.  I get it now.

Maybe an answer of the question would be a better response.

[morpheus]

Far be it from me to question the assertions of the Bush DOJ, but if Zubaida's statement that Padilla intended to detonate a dirty bomb was confirmed by "multiple independent and corroborating sources" as Ashcroft claimed, why was the dirty bomb plot never mentioned in the government's charges against Padilla? And the fact that Zubaida wasn't used as a witness in the trial against Padilla doesn't exactly speak to his reliability.

Ah.  Padilla's just a regular Joe.  I get it now.

Maybe an answer of the question would be a better response.

Sure, Chuck.  My response is that stopping something from happening and being able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law are two different things.