The Atheist Communist Caliphate Made Flesh, Spread the Clusterfuck Around Thread

[Eli]

In other words, most of the people who went through the Great Depression

Most of those people are like 90 years old or dead.  I don't think they're the ones coming out and disrupting the town halls.

[Quality Start Machine]

Yes, the deficit did explode during Reagan's time as President. However, he tried to balance his increases in defense spending by proposing cuts in several domestic programs.

Yes.  IRS collectors.

and air traffic controllers.

[RV]

My concern with health care reform is the consequences that could occur related to the cost of this package. There are estimates out there saying this thing would cost between $1 trillion and $2 trillion over the first decade.

If only there were a place you could find such information...

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?cat=5

If you're concerned about the deficit, it's the window beyond ten years you should be worried about. The eventual bill will be deficit neutral (for CBO scoring purposes, which, for better or worse, is how all bills are evaluated) over the initial 10 year window, using a combination lower Medicare reimbursements, and either a surtax, a tax on insurance companies, or a cap on the employer tax exclusion for health care.

If you want to debate whether the bill will add to the deficit after the 10 year window, that's fine. There are legitimate arguments on either side - cost savings and efficiencies could reduce the deficit, or the burden of coverage subsidies could add to the deficit. But estimating costs/revenues even within the 10 year window is difficult enough - go beyond that and even CBO will acknowledge it's a bit of a crapshoot.

[RV]

Obama has pretty much lost any trust he has with the failed Stimulus bill. 

Failed?

That's an opinion article. That ain't fact, dude. Just some dude and words on a computer screen

More opinions from ghey economists who obviously don't have access to MikeC's advanced economic metrics and calculations:

Recovery from the worst recession since the 1930s has begun as President Barack Obama's fiscal stimulus -- derided as insufficient and budget-busting months ago -- takes effect, a survey of economists indicated.

The economy will expand 2 percent or more in four straight quarters through June, the first such streak in more than four years, according to the median of 53 forecasts in the monthly Bloomberg News survey. Analysts lifted their estimate for the third quarter by 1.2 percentage points compared with July, the biggest such boost in surveys dating from May 2003.

"We've averted the worst, and there are clear signs the stimulus is working," said Kenneth Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board in New York.

[Quality Start Machine]

Obama has pretty much lost any trust he has with the failed Stimulus bill. 

Failed?

That's an opinion article. That ain't fact, dude. Just some dude and words on a computer screen

More opinions from ghey economists who obviously don't have access to MikeC's advanced economic metrics and calculations:

Recovery from the worst recession since the 1930s has begun as President Barack Obama's fiscal stimulus -- derided as insufficient and budget-busting months ago -- takes effect, a survey of economists indicated.

The economy will expand 2 percent or more in four straight quarters through June, the first such streak in more than four years, according to the median of 53 forecasts in the monthly Bloomberg News survey. Analysts lifted their estimate for the third quarter by 1.2 percentage points compared with July, the biggest such boost in surveys dating from May 2003.

"We've averted the worst, and there are clear signs the stimulus is working," said Kenneth Goldstein, an economist at the Conference Board in New York.

LIBRUL BANKERS!!!

[MikeC]

In any event, I can only ask what would happen if you, MikeC, were unemployed, and without health insurance.  We won't even consider your eligibility for Medicaid, for which you probably wouldn't qualify.

To be perfectly honest that happened to me earlier this year. Prior to last January for the last year plus every couple months i would have a bad case of stomach cramps. Bad enough that i had to go to the emergency room a few times for them to stop me from throwing up and stop the pain. It was really unbearable pain. Both times they ran tests found nothing just treated me for the naseua and pain and sent me home. After the 2nd time they sent me in for an Ultra Sound, again nothing wrong.

Finally after a year or so dealing with this it happened again on a trip to Denver. Went to the emergency room there and this time finally someone listened, sent me in for a CT scan and figured out what was wrong. It was my appendix. One of the simpliest diagnosis and procedures in medicine.

Mixed into this was a visit to a primary care physcian at the new local community health center. One of those centers that would probably be the centerpiece of Obamacare. My visit with the Doc lasted 30 seconds and she came up with the bright idea it was Acid Reflux (i had no symptoms of it) and gave me sample pills to treat it. She also recommended cutting out Alcohol and spicy foods. I wasn't too impressed with the hurry up get me out so i can move onto the next patient.

To go along with that my girlfriends kids had some kind of rash and we went to the same place. She has all the nice government health plans for low income people and doesn't pay a dime. Again 30 seconds its just a normal rash going around put this cream on it, it should be fine. It wasn't fine the rash wasn't going away. 2nd visit same thing different cream, again no reaction. I did a little research on the internet and narrowed it down to a form of Staph infection. I have no medical knowledge so i could have been way off. 3rd time i asked could we do a culture on it and maybe see what the fuck we are dealing with? They did that and it came back Staph infection and prescribed some heavy anti-biotics to finally get rid of it. Again not impressed with the hurry up get you out move onto the next person.

Anyways $10,000 wasted at Emergency rooms in Iowa, to not figure out what was going on, and $26,000 dollars in Denver for surgery on my Appendix with zero health insurance and not working at the time. And I still don't want so called free health care and believe the state has zero responsibility to provide it for you. They can regulate it but running health care? No fucking way should the federal government be involved.

The problem really isn't insurance companies its our sue happy society. Doctors have to pay massive malpractice insurance which gets passed onto the public. If we could figure out how to protect the doctors and stop alot of these frivolous lawsuits costs would come down without the government getting involved.

Another area is getting new drugs past the FDA, putting a new drug on the market is insanley expensive and time consuming. For once i advocate a system like Europe or Canada that is less regulated and allows people access to newer drugs more quickly. Also costs for these drugs seem to be far lower than in the USA.

[RV]

The problem really isn't insurance companies its our sue happy society. Doctors have to pay massive malpractice insurance which gets passed onto the public. If we could figure out how to protect the doctors and stop alot of these frivolous lawsuits costs would come down without the government getting involved.

Malpractice costs account for about 1/50th of all health care spending.

Evidence from the states indicates that premiums for malpractice insurance are lower when tort liability is restricted than they would be otherwise. But even large savings in premiums can have only a small direct impact on health care spending--private or governmental--because malpractice costs account for less than 2 percent of that spending.

[ChuckD]

The problem really isn't insurance companies its our sue happy society. Doctors have to pay massive malpractice insurance which gets passed onto the public. If we could figure out how to protect the doctors and stop alot of these frivolous lawsuits costs would come down without the government getting involved.

Tort Reform as has been pointed out in this very thread by Gil Gunderson is estimated to result in (at best) a 2% drop in prices. Source: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=995270

This study evaluates the impact of tort reform on health insurance coverage using the Current Population Survey's March Demographic Files.

Proponents of tort reform argue that reform will reduce medical malpractice insurance costs, damage awards, and costs associated with defensive medicine. If proponents are correct, these cost reductions should lower the price of healthcare and increase health insurance coverage.

On the other hand, if the prior tort law was functioning well, reform may increase medical costs by reducing doctors' care-taking or increasing the number of unnecessary procedures. In this case, tort reform could actually decrease insurance coverage by raising the price of health care.

We evaluate the effect of eight common tort reforms on private health insurance coverage between 1981 and 2004. In triple-difference specifications, we find that reform generally increased health insurance coverage for the most price-sensitive groups (the young, the self-employed, and the single). We also find that those uninsured around the time of reform were more likely to obtain private insurance after reform. Given the multicollinearity of many reforms, it is difficult to gauge the impact of individual reforms. However, the evidence suggests that limitations on punitive and non-economic damages do not affect private insurance coverage, while caps on total damages, collateral source reform, and reforms to liability and payment structure are associated with increased private insurance coverage for price-sensitive groups. Accordingly, we conclude that some tort reforms are effective in reducing healthcare costs. The magnitude of the effects on price sensitive groups suggests that some tort reforms can reduce health care costs by as much as two percent.

Consider that the US pays "53 percent per capita more than the next highest country, Switzerland, and 140 percent above the median industrialized country, according to new research from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."

You're talking about a slight marginal drop in costs within a system that's completely fucked.

[Eli]

sent me in for a CT scan and figured out what was wrong. It was my appendix.

CT's a smart guy.  Not surprised he figured it out.

[CBStew]

In other words, most of the people who went through the Great Depression

Most of those people are like 90 years old or dead.  I don't think they're the ones coming out and disrupting the town halls.

Speaking as someone who was born during FDR's first term and who has vivid memories of the depression I believe that the Town Hall disruptions have nothing to do with economics.  Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the demonstrators are being manipulated by medical insurance companies and the Republican Party.   
The demonstrators are a frightened mob of ELITISTS who feel something is slipping away from them and who realize that they can not only get away with acting out but that they can also find mutual support from other threatened white folks.  I call them elitists because they have their own sense of entitlement due to their skin color and what they were lead to believe they had coming to them as members of the middle class. 

[PenFoe]

In other words, most of the people who went through the Great Depression

Most of those people are like 90 years old or dead.  I don't think they're the ones coming out and disrupting the town halls.

Speaking as someone who was born during FDR's first term and who has vivid memories of the depression I believe that the Town Hall disruptions have nothing to do with economics.  Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the demonstrators are being manipulated by medical insurance companies and the Republican Party.   
The demonstrators are a frightened mob of ELITISTS who feel something is slipping away from them and who realize that they can not only get away with acting out but that they can also find mutual support from other threatened white folks.  I call them elitists because they have their own sense of entitlement due to their skin color and what they were lead to believe they had coming to them as members of the middle class. 

Sorry, Stew, all Elitists are liberal and come from the Northeast.
It's a proven fact.

[Oleg]

In other words, most of the people who went through the Great Depression

Most of those people are like 90 years old or dead.  I don't think they're the ones coming out and disrupting the town halls.

Speaking as someone who was born during FDR's first term and who has vivid memories of the depression I believe that the Town Hall disruptions have nothing to do with economics.  Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the demonstrators are being manipulated by medical insurance companies and the Republican Party.   
The demonstrators are a frightened mob of ELITISTS who feel something is slipping away from them and who realize that they can not only get away with acting out but that they can also find mutual support from other threatened white folks.  I call them elitists because they have their own sense of entitlement due to their skin color and what they were lead to believe they had coming to them as members of the middle class. 

Sorry, Stew, all Elitists are liberal and come from the Northeast.
It's a proven fact.

Did Stew chop the "read" off the end of the thread title on purpose?

[Quality Start Machine]

sent me in for a CT scan and figured out what was wrong. It was my appendix.

CT's a smart guy.  Not surprised he figured it out.

You can judge a man's intelligence by the company he keeps.

[Philberto]

In other words, most of the people who went through the Great Depression

Most of those people are like 90 years old or dead.  I don't think they're the ones coming out and disrupting the town halls.

Speaking as someone who was born during FDR's first term and who has vivid memories of the depression I believe that the Town Hall disruptions have nothing to do with economics.  Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the demonstrators are being manipulated by medical insurance companies and the Republican Party.   
The demonstrators are a frightened mob of ELITISTS who feel something is slipping away from them and who realize that they can not only get away with acting out but that they can also find mutual support from other threatened white folks.  I call them elitists because they have their own sense of entitlement due to their skin color and what they were lead to believe they had coming to them as members of the middle class. 

Sorry, Stew, all Elitists are liberal and come from the Northeast.
It's a proven fact.

Did Stew chop the "read" off the end of the thread title on purpose?

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg187677#msg187677

Appears that Eli started the trend

Edit: Appears it's been doing that even before him.. Intriguing.

[Brownie]

Again, the Dems in Congress and the Obama Administration have as big a beef about Astroturf as the Houston Astros, Whitey Herzog and Mike Martz. Both parties use Astroturf, and there's not much either side can do about it.

All that said, when town hall meetings are getting filled up, it's either a lot of dollars or it's a lot of fired up people. I could name -- easily -- 100 people off the top of my head who oppose the "public option." I'm almost 100 percent certain none of these people have attended town hall meetings. Yes, it's a small and anecdotal sample, but there isn't overwhelming support (or even necessarily majority support) for it.

I did enjoy that the President gave an example of private competing with public: the Post Office vs. Fed Ex and UPS. I'm sure he wants to rethink that.

Finally, here's an Op-Ed by John Mackey, which ran in today's Wall St. Journal.

I know most of you will disagree with it and hate it, but he argues far better than I'd be able to.