Oblivion: Stories + More DFW

[Pre]

It was too depressing to go to the dead pool, so I'm starting a second David Foster Wallace thread.

I finished Oblivion which is a collection of stories about, well, a lot.  Mostly is revolves around internal
worries/thoughts/fears/etc, particularly related to social pressures or anxiety.  The whole thing had a
lot of weight around it considering DFW's suicide, but I enjoyed the whole book.  Enjoyed isn't the
right word, it is sad but amazing.  I'm always in awe with DFW's ability to wield what seems like the
entirety of the English language to give a precise description/emotion/idea etc.  Always makes me feel
like I write like a 3rd grader.

I would also recommend breaking your mp3 player and having an excuse to pickup an ipod touch.
There's a couple free dictionaries you can load on it which is amazingly useful for trying to keep up.

I also started Everything and More: A Compact History of Infinity which is a non-fiction book by him
and I'm really enjoying, but would only recommend if you either are a math nerd and/or if you love
appreciating brilliant writing as far as form/function/style/diction/everything.

Also, has anyone else heard about his incomplete novel they are going to publish?  I hope it's not the
travesty that Douglas Adam's supposed partial novel was.

[Jon]

I also started Everything and More: A Compact History of Infinity which is a non-fiction book by him
and I'm really enjoying, but would only recommend if you either are a math nerd and/or if you love
appreciating brilliant writing as far as form/function/style/diction/everything.

I just picked up Consider the Lobster last week, but haven't started it yet because, coincidentally, I've been listening to two audiobooks about the history of the concept of infinity - Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea, by Charles Seife and The Mystery of the Aleph: Mathematics, the Kabbalah, and the Search for Infinity, by Amir Aczel. I suspect Wallace's are better written.

Also, that posthumous Douglas Adams novel sucked.

[Slaky]

I read parts of Oblivion a couple years ago. The story with the guy who climbs the building while the other guy commits some kind of biological act of terrorism with ricin was pretty excellent. Maybe I'm mixing two stories together? It's been a while.

I'm actually reading Brief Interviews with Hideous Men right now.

Also, I really, really enjoyed The Girl With the Curious Hair. That collection is outstanding.

I'm disappointed that I'll never read the book he wrote about infinity for two reasons. One being I love to read his writing but can't understand math. Two being that this man was not only a genius with words but also in math. It blows my mind how one man could grasp so many concepts.

[Jon]

Slak, I'm shitty in math, but I've found if you skip the formulas (just assuming they are "correct") most books on high level math concepts (especially infinity) are closer to reading about philosophy.

[Pre]

I read parts of Oblivion a couple years ago. The story with the guy who climbs the building while the other guy commits some kind of biological act of terrorism with ricin was pretty excellent. Maybe I'm mixing two stories together? It's been a while.

I'm actually reading Brief Interviews with Hideous Men right now.

Those are both pieces of the same story, which was fantastic.

I listened to DFW reading Brief Interviews... when my sister got it from the library on cassette
when we drove to South Dakota to do some hiking.  Like everything DFW did, his reading was
fantastic.

Slak, I'm shitty in math, but I've found if you skip the formulas (just assuming they are "correct") most books on high level math concepts (especially infinity) are closer to reading about philosophy.

I'm not done yet, but so far I entirely agree that the real interesting stuff is in the
philosophy/logic involved.  Part of what makes it so amazing is that DFW manages to
distill some fairly complicated math into the real logic behind it.  Almost all math classes
have you spend all term manipulating random functions based on rote rules.  Very few
of them actually explain _what_ you're doing.  This book is almost all about what
concepts are being explored/proved/related versus acting like a problem solving robot.

[RV]

Not that you need any motivation to finish but when you find out what happens to Orin, please let me know.

Haven't reached that point yet, but I'm around page 600 and this is my definitely my favorite book ever. Wallace's ability to describe the sights, sounds, and smells of a particular scene is just stunningly good. I know the word 'genius' gets tossed around too much, but it's definitely appropriate for this guy. Found a couple interesting interviews:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040606041906/www.andbutso.com/~mark/bookworm96/

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5639

The Orin stuff is almost in a throwaway scene near the end. You won't get there for a while but you'll clench up a little. And then you'll post your thoughts here. I'm looking forward to them.

Well I finished Infinite Jest...a few thoughts


DON'T READ THE SPOILERS PENFOE


Slak, you are right about the Orin scene clenching. That was completely bizarre and extremely disturbing. I still can't decide if I'm disappointed with the end...a simple human like myself who is used to linear storytelling was expecting some sort of resolution to the storylines. But there were so many sections of the book that, by themselves, were so good that it was worth the time investment, I can't really be mad at the open end. Or are there enough hints throughout to figure out the ending and I just didn't catch on?

As far as the ending goes - in the very first chapter Hal says that he, Gately, and John Wayne dug up Himself's head either instead of attending the Whataburger or after it. Steeply obviously clued Joelle in as to what the AFR's plan was...are we to assume that there was indeed some sort of "antidote" Entertainment buried with Himself, and that's what they were digging up?

And Hal's condition - what is the significance of that? Is it simply that he's in withdrawal from the 'Bob Hope' and is losing his ability to communicate normally without it?

Look forward to you booknerds learning me up on what I missed.

[PenFoe]

DON'T READ THE SPOILERS PENFOE

I stopped reading here, thanks for the heads-up.

The library nazis foreclosed on my copy of this.  Apparently I'm not the only one who wants to read this book, and seeing that they only let you have it for 2 weeks if someone else is on the hold list, I'll probably just have to buy it.

Anyway...I hope you enjoyed it.
I'll be sure to revisit this thread when I get around to buying this book.

[RV]

Wow, this is really great stuff. I wish I'd thought of some of this:

http://dfan.org/jest.txt

http://infinitesummer.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=112&start=0

[Slaky]

I'm on board with the DMZ theory.

Also RV, what did you make of the John Wayne/Avril situation? Goddamn it that creeped me out. In fact Avril's existence creeped me out. Also, how fucking disgusting do you think Mario looked?

[Slaky]

Re: Hideous Men - there's a story in there about a 19 year old who is packing for college when he suddenly realizes that his dad waggled his dick right in his face when he was a young child and how he confronts his dad.

It's one definitely the best seven page story I've ever read.

[RV]

I'm on board with the DMZ theory.

Also RV, what did you make of the John Wayne/Avril situation? Goddamn it that creeped me out. In fact Avril's existence creeped me out. Also, how fucking disgusting do you think Mario looked?

John Wayne was wearing a football uniform (helmet included) while rogering Avril in a cheerleading outfit, right? All sorts of screwed up aspects to that. I like the theory that Wayne is a sleeper agent for the AFR. Avril sounds like she's the worst mom a kid could ask for.

Despite all the descriptions of the 'police lock' and the deformities, I really can't picture Mario looks like other than the fact that he'd be physically revolting. Is he the only purely likeable character in the book? Gately and Hal are both sympathetic characters, but Gately has some pretty dirty deeds under his belt and Hal is so oddly detached from the world it's hard not to get frustrated at his inability to communicate with his family.

[Pre]

It's been a decade since I read it, but I don't think I'm on board with the DMZ theory
(as I understand it from browsing those links.)  I can't speak to how well it could be fit
into the narrative, but I just ultimately don't think that the book is a puzzle to be solved.
At risk (and actuality) of sounding like a douche who can claim to understand DFW's own
ideas, nothing I've read of his makes me think he cared much at all about endings or
resolutions.

I think the interplay of what is reality, what are different character's perceptions, what are
thoughts, what are normal or drug induced dreams, etc forms a lot of the depth of the
novel and trying to flatten those themes to a single reality is missing the point.  I'm not
saying you shouldn't wonder.  I remember sitting in a stupor for hours after I finished it
trying to figure out if maybe (almost) all of it was Demeral dreams.  The entertainment and
Quebecois are hard (or were for me) to fit into any all encompassing theories.  I just think
nicely packaged 'solutions' can be detrimental at times because they can discourage your own
ideas and tend to hand wave a lot.

That said, it's awesome to see people pull out the Hamlet references or sharing theories and
thoughts.  I'm really jonesing to pick this back up.

[Slaky]

It's been a decade since I read it, but I don't think I'm on board with the DMZ theory
(as I understand it from browsing those links.)  I can't speak to how well it could be fit
into the narrative, but I just ultimately don't think that the book is a puzzle to be solved.
At risk (and actuality) of sounding like a douche who can claim to understand DFW's own
ideas, nothing I've read of his makes me think he cared much at all about endings or
resolutions.

I think the interplay of what is reality, what are different character's perceptions, what are
thoughts, what are normal or drug induced dreams, etc forms a lot of the depth of the
novel and trying to flatten those themes to a single reality is missing the point.  I'm not
saying you shouldn't wonder.  I remember sitting in a stupor for hours after I finished it
trying to figure out if maybe (almost) all of it was Demeral dreams.  The entertainment and
Quebecois are hard (or were for me) to fit into any all encompassing theories.  I just think
nicely packaged 'solutions' can be detrimental at times because they can discourage your own
ideas and tend to hand wave a lot.

That said, it's awesome to see people pull out the Hamlet references or sharing theories and
thoughts.  I'm really jonesing to pick this back up.

The Hamlet references stuck with me for a long time.

I think individual parts and characters stuck with me more than "what is it about?". For example, my number one favorite part of the book is DFW's analysis of why the videophone will never catch on ever. It was absolutely brilliant and would stand on its own as an essay.

[R-V]

Great conversation between DFW and Gus van Sant. The guy really was a genius...he was actually trying to solve the problems they used in Good Will Hunting.

GVS: ...So Pat, our advisor, said that he could find a problem where, where the answer would actually be, um, like, when you're talking to the mathematic public they'll actually believe, you know, that what Will has written might be a solution, but if you looked into it it's sort of a red herring and it's not really a solution at all.

DFW: Yeah, I kept trying, 'cause here are sort of three separate problems that are explicitly done and the second one's done in a quick montage and they cancel out some terms and then give each other a high five and that I was pretty sure was a Fourier trans- (interference)

GVS: Yeah...

DFW: -- which is something that I've seen, um, but-but that one (dog barks) hang on, HUSH! -- that one with the joint vertices I, I had recog- (chair moves loudly) ...so, so in the screenplay did Damon (dog barks) and Affleck just put in a lot of math in there or something or did you...

[Slaky]

Not that you need any motivation to finish but when you find out what happens to Orin, please let me know.

Haven't reached that point yet, but I'm around page 600 and this is my definitely my favorite book ever. Wallace's ability to describe the sights, sounds, and smells of a particular scene is just stunningly good. I know the word 'genius' gets tossed around too much, but it's definitely appropriate for this guy. Found a couple interesting interviews:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040606041906/www.andbutso.com/~mark/bookworm96/

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5639

The Orin stuff is almost in a throwaway scene near the end. You won't get there for a while but you'll clench up a little. And then you'll post your thoughts here. I'm looking forward to them.

Well I finished Infinite Jest...a few thoughts


DON'T READ THE SPOILERS PENFOE


Slak, you are right about the Orin scene clenching. That was completely bizarre and extremely disturbing. I still can't decide if I'm disappointed with the end...a simple human like myself who is used to linear storytelling was expecting some sort of resolution to the storylines. But there were so many sections of the book that, by themselves, were so good that it was worth the time investment, I can't really be mad at the open end. Or are there enough hints throughout to figure out the ending and I just didn't catch on?

As far as the ending goes - in the very first chapter Hal says that he, Gately, and John Wayne dug up Himself's head either instead of attending the Whataburger or after it. Steeply obviously clued Joelle in as to what the AFR's plan was...are we to assume that there was indeed some sort of "antidote" Entertainment buried with Himself, and that's what they were digging up?

And Hal's condition - what is the significance of that? Is it simply that he's in withdrawal from the 'Bob Hope' and is losing his ability to communicate normally without it?

Look forward to you booknerds learning me up on what I missed.

So Orin and the roaches:

The Canadians wanted the master copy of the "entertainment" and Orin, being Himself's son, was a means to an end. The roaches were part of his interrogation.

Can't believe I never put that together.