Lost: The Final Boner

[Chuck to Chuck]

I know I've asked this question before, but is this show any good or are all of you watching just to get to the end of it, ala the Elaine Benes Theory of Bad Sub Sandwiches?

It's good.  24 is a Bad Sub.

[Wheezer]

8) Badass.

They've certainly tweaked the CGI to make the Smoke Monster really look like a flying turd, I'll give it that.

[Richard Chuggar]

I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS!

Hole.  E.  Shit.  Sayid.  What a crazy, badass sand morgan.  It was pretty creepy seeing him and Claire walk out with those looks on their faces to Flocke after he killed the temple people.  I guess he did whatever recruiting he did. 
Questions: 
1.  Why was finding Jack and Hugo so important?  Just b/c they're on that list?
2.  How did Iliana know about that secret little room, and what was that secret little room?
3.  Poor Dogan.  I liked him.

[R-V]

Thoughts...

1) In Dogen's conversation with Sayid, he suggested the deals Jacob and EvilLocke offered each of them, respectively, were "similar." They weren't really the same, though. EvilLocke tempted Sayid to his side by telling he could have the thing he most wants. Jacob's deal with Dogen was very different: yes, his son would live (Dogen's sin forgiven?), but Dogen would never be able to see him again. It's selfish love on the one hand versus a selfless sacrifice on the other.

I don't know if we can assume it's Sosiano-esque selfishness. My take on the conversation was that Sayid simply wanted Nadia to not be dead, not necessarily that he felt he should be able to see/bone her again.

[Weebs]

I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS!

Hole.  E.  Shit.  Sayid.  What a crazy, badass sand morgan.  It was pretty creepy seeing him and Claire walk out with those looks on their faces to Flocke after he killed the temple people.  I guess he did whatever recruiting he did. 
Questions: 
1.  Why was finding Jack and Hugo so important?  Just b/c they're on that list?
2.  How did Iliana know about that secret little room, and what was that secret little room?
3.  Poor Dogan.  I liked him.

That was the secret exit out of the temple that Jacob told Hurley about in the Lighthouse episode so he and Jack could leave.  I'm assuming she knows because she's one of the Jacob followers.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Thoughts...

1) In Dogen's conversation with Sayid, he suggested the deals Jacob and EvilLocke offered each of them, respectively, were "similar." They weren't really the same, though. EvilLocke tempted Sayid to his side by telling he could have the thing he most wants. Jacob's deal with Dogen was very different: yes, his son would live (Dogen's sin forgiven?), but Dogen would never be able to see him again. It's selfish love on the one hand versus a selfless sacrifice on the other.

I don't know if we can assume it's Sosiano-esque selfishness. My take on the conversation was that Sayid simply wanted Nadia to not be dead, not necessarily that he felt he should be able to see/bone her again.

Sayid said the only thing he wants in the whole world died in his arms and lamented that he'll never get to see her again. EvilLocke asked, "What if you could?" That's what secured Badass Sayid's comeback.

Dogen's deal, on the other hand, was: your son will live, but you'll have to move to the island to serve Jacob and will never see him again.

1.  Why was finding Jack and Hugo so important?  Just b/c they're on that list?

By which you mean "Why was Jacob so concerned about getting Jack and Hurley, in particular, out of the temple?"

IIRC, Jack and Hurley were the only potential candidates left in the temple at that moment besides Sayid (and the DARKNESS had already gotten to him). Jin, Sun, Sawyer and Kate were already safely outside of it (at least at that point).

[PenFoe]

So is anyone else squarely on the side of the Man in Black in this upcoming rumble? The recurring theme throughout all these flashsideways is that all these people would be just fine if not for Jacob and his sneaky meddling.

I'm not so sure.

On the one hand, I've been prepared for a "the evil guy is good" twist for a while now.

Even if EvilLocke is a Satan type, there's plenty of room to look at him the other way around as a hero to man. Like Prometheus, who stole the fire from the Gods for man, Satan in the Garden of Eden can be viewed as a liberating figure, opening men's eyes to their free will through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

On the other hand, I suspect the shiny-happy alternate timeline stuff is all a big feint.

Yeah, life seems better in the alt timeline, but it seems way too easy to last. Either all the shiny-happy stuff will at some point all go to shit or—and this is sort of my current hunch (based on nothing at all)—something will happen, or something will come to light, that will compel the Losties to somehow "sacrifice" that comfort in order to rectify the timeline split. For the good of the island/world/universe/whatever.

On the other hand, another thought has occurred to me when thinking about the alternate timeline stuff we'll be seeing going forward (looks like Sayid and Nadia tonight)...

It hasn't yet been shown that the bomb blast is actually what led to the alternate timeline. In fact, it seems like there are already a few differences that are kind of tricky to account for by a 1977 timeline fork (e.g., Alternate Ben, given that young Ben was already on the island and tight with the Others by that point).

So, I think (for starters) that it's entirely possible that the alternate timeline is not Jughead's doing. At least not directly.

What caused it, then?

Go back to Jacob and EvilLocke's discussion as they watched the Black Rock approach...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Incident,_Parts_1_&_2_transcript

MAN IN BLACK: ...They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

The thought that occurs to me is this: What if the current island timeline (the "normal" timeline) ultimately leads to this "end" Jacob is talking about (whatever that might be)?

And what if this (for some reason) means history itself is "reset" and starts again, this time without the island and its mojo (the island and Jacob no longer being needed, because... uh, whatever it is that "progress" was being made on... has finally been "accomplished")?

The Bacon Loop loops over again (which would be what we're seeing in the flash-sideways), the world somehow the better for it this time around.

What about that?

Just a thought on the alternate timeline stuff.

In the previous episodes we've seen Jack turn out to be a pretty good dude, Kate go back to pick-up Claire and become a pretty good person...but Sayid, for all his efforts, still ended up violent (albeit awesome).  So, for some of these people, is their future inevitable? Sayid turns evil on the island and subsequently (or concurrently) remains evil/violent in the alt timeline as well...like it was his destiny, never was going to avoid it despite best efforts and intentions.

[R-V]

So is anyone else squarely on the side of the Man in Black in this upcoming rumble? The recurring theme throughout all these flashsideways is that all these people would be just fine if not for Jacob and his sneaky meddling.

I'm not so sure.

On the one hand, I've been prepared for a "the evil guy is good" twist for a while now.

Even if EvilLocke is a Satan type, there's plenty of room to look at him the other way around as a hero to man. Like Prometheus, who stole the fire from the Gods for man, Satan in the Garden of Eden can be viewed as a liberating figure, opening men's eyes to their free will through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

On the other hand, I suspect the shiny-happy alternate timeline stuff is all a big feint.

Yeah, life seems better in the alt timeline, but it seems way too easy to last. Either all the shiny-happy stuff will at some point all go to shit or—and this is sort of my current hunch (based on nothing at all)—something will happen, or something will come to light, that will compel the Losties to somehow "sacrifice" that comfort in order to rectify the timeline split. For the good of the island/world/universe/whatever.

On the other hand, another thought has occurred to me when thinking about the alternate timeline stuff we'll be seeing going forward (looks like Sayid and Nadia tonight)...

It hasn't yet been shown that the bomb blast is actually what led to the alternate timeline. In fact, it seems like there are already a few differences that are kind of tricky to account for by a 1977 timeline fork (e.g., Alternate Ben, given that young Ben was already on the island and tight with the Others by that point).

So, I think (for starters) that it's entirely possible that the alternate timeline is not Jughead's doing. At least not directly.

What caused it, then?

Go back to Jacob and EvilLocke's discussion as they watched the Black Rock approach...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Incident,_Parts_1_&_2_transcript

MAN IN BLACK: ...They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

The thought that occurs to me is this: What if the current island timeline (the "normal" timeline) ultimately leads to this "end" Jacob is talking about (whatever that might be)?

And what if this (for some reason) means history itself is "reset" and starts again, this time without the island and its mojo (the island and Jacob no longer being needed, because... uh, whatever it is that "progress" was being made on... has finally been "accomplished")?

The Bacon Loop loops over again (which would be what we're seeing in the flash-sideways), the world somehow the better for it this time around.

What about that?

Just a thought on the alternate timeline stuff.

In the previous episodes we've seen Jack turn out to be a pretty good dude, Kate go back to pick-up Claire and become a pretty good person...but Sayid, for all his efforts, still ended up violent (albeit awesome).  So, for some of these people, is their future inevitable? Sayid turns evil on the island and subsequently (or concurrently) remains evil/violent in the alt timeline as well...like it was his destiny, never was going to avoid it despite best efforts and intentions.

OR: we can assume that Jack, Kate and Hurley make Dogen-esque selfless deals with Jacob in the island endgame. So they're rewarded with a better life in the final loop.

Sayid (and possibly Jin) make a selfish deal with the Man in Black, but it turns out he was selling a bunch of horseplop, and they get hosed and end up with the same lousy lives in the final loop.

[PenFoe]

So is anyone else squarely on the side of the Man in Black in this upcoming rumble? The recurring theme throughout all these flashsideways is that all these people would be just fine if not for Jacob and his sneaky meddling.

I'm not so sure.

On the one hand, I've been prepared for a "the evil guy is good" twist for a while now.

Even if EvilLocke is a Satan type, there's plenty of room to look at him the other way around as a hero to man. Like Prometheus, who stole the fire from the Gods for man, Satan in the Garden of Eden can be viewed as a liberating figure, opening men's eyes to their free will through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

On the other hand, I suspect the shiny-happy alternate timeline stuff is all a big feint.

Yeah, life seems better in the alt timeline, but it seems way too easy to last. Either all the shiny-happy stuff will at some point all go to shit or—and this is sort of my current hunch (based on nothing at all)—something will happen, or something will come to light, that will compel the Losties to somehow "sacrifice" that comfort in order to rectify the timeline split. For the good of the island/world/universe/whatever.

On the other hand, another thought has occurred to me when thinking about the alternate timeline stuff we'll be seeing going forward (looks like Sayid and Nadia tonight)...

It hasn't yet been shown that the bomb blast is actually what led to the alternate timeline. In fact, it seems like there are already a few differences that are kind of tricky to account for by a 1977 timeline fork (e.g., Alternate Ben, given that young Ben was already on the island and tight with the Others by that point).

So, I think (for starters) that it's entirely possible that the alternate timeline is not Jughead's doing. At least not directly.

What caused it, then?

Go back to Jacob and EvilLocke's discussion as they watched the Black Rock approach...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Incident,_Parts_1_&_2_transcript

MAN IN BLACK: ...They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

The thought that occurs to me is this: What if the current island timeline (the "normal" timeline) ultimately leads to this "end" Jacob is talking about (whatever that might be)?

And what if this (for some reason) means history itself is "reset" and starts again, this time without the island and its mojo (the island and Jacob no longer being needed, because... uh, whatever it is that "progress" was being made on... has finally been "accomplished")?

The Bacon Loop loops over again (which would be what we're seeing in the flash-sideways), the world somehow the better for it this time around.

What about that?

Just a thought on the alternate timeline stuff.

In the previous episodes we've seen Jack turn out to be a pretty good dude, Kate go back to pick-up Claire and become a pretty good person...but Sayid, for all his efforts, still ended up violent (albeit awesome).  So, for some of these people, is their future inevitable? Sayid turns evil on the island and subsequently (or concurrently) remains evil/violent in the alt timeline as well...like it was his destiny, never was going to avoid it despite best efforts and intentions.

OR: we can assume that Jack, Kate and Hurley make Dogen-esque selfless deals with Jacob in the island endgame. So they're rewarded with a better life in the final loop.

Sayid (and possibly Jin) make a selfish deal with the Man in Black, but it turns out he was selling a bunch of horseplop, and they get hosed and end up with the same lousy lives in the final loop.

Oh, I like that theory.
But how does it account for Locke?  Had kind of an up-and-down ride in the alt timeline.
Or Ben? He seems to be not that thrilled about his job.

[R-V]

So is anyone else squarely on the side of the Man in Black in this upcoming rumble? The recurring theme throughout all these flashsideways is that all these people would be just fine if not for Jacob and his sneaky meddling.

I'm not so sure.

On the one hand, I've been prepared for a "the evil guy is good" twist for a while now.

Even if EvilLocke is a Satan type, there's plenty of room to look at him the other way around as a hero to man. Like Prometheus, who stole the fire from the Gods for man, Satan in the Garden of Eden can be viewed as a liberating figure, opening men's eyes to their free will through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

On the other hand, I suspect the shiny-happy alternate timeline stuff is all a big feint.

Yeah, life seems better in the alt timeline, but it seems way too easy to last. Either all the shiny-happy stuff will at some point all go to shit or—and this is sort of my current hunch (based on nothing at all)—something will happen, or something will come to light, that will compel the Losties to somehow "sacrifice" that comfort in order to rectify the timeline split. For the good of the island/world/universe/whatever.

On the other hand, another thought has occurred to me when thinking about the alternate timeline stuff we'll be seeing going forward (looks like Sayid and Nadia tonight)...

It hasn't yet been shown that the bomb blast is actually what led to the alternate timeline. In fact, it seems like there are already a few differences that are kind of tricky to account for by a 1977 timeline fork (e.g., Alternate Ben, given that young Ben was already on the island and tight with the Others by that point).

So, I think (for starters) that it's entirely possible that the alternate timeline is not Jughead's doing. At least not directly.

What caused it, then?

Go back to Jacob and EvilLocke's discussion as they watched the Black Rock approach...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Incident,_Parts_1_&_2_transcript

MAN IN BLACK: ...They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

The thought that occurs to me is this: What if the current island timeline (the "normal" timeline) ultimately leads to this "end" Jacob is talking about (whatever that might be)?

And what if this (for some reason) means history itself is "reset" and starts again, this time without the island and its mojo (the island and Jacob no longer being needed, because... uh, whatever it is that "progress" was being made on... has finally been "accomplished")?

The Bacon Loop loops over again (which would be what we're seeing in the flash-sideways), the world somehow the better for it this time around.

What about that?

Just a thought on the alternate timeline stuff.

In the previous episodes we've seen Jack turn out to be a pretty good dude, Kate go back to pick-up Claire and become a pretty good person...but Sayid, for all his efforts, still ended up violent (albeit awesome).  So, for some of these people, is their future inevitable? Sayid turns evil on the island and subsequently (or concurrently) remains evil/violent in the alt timeline as well...like it was his destiny, never was going to avoid it despite best efforts and intentions.

OR: we can assume that Jack, Kate and Hurley make Dogen-esque selfless deals with Jacob in the island endgame. So they're rewarded with a better life in the final loop.

Sayid (and possibly Jin) make a selfish deal with the Man in Black, but it turns out he was selling a bunch of horseplop, and they get hosed and end up with the same lousy lives in the final loop.

Oh, I like that theory.
But how does it account for Locke?  Had kind of an up-and-down ride in the alt timeline.
Or Ben? He seems to be not that thrilled about his job.

I think it's safe to say that AltLocke had it way better than original Locke - he's going to marry Peggy, and (it seems) is on good terms with his dad. But he was dead before making any deals with Jacob/Smokey so this theory doesn't apply to him.

As for Ben, I think it's a bit premature to judge how his alt-life is going until we hear him do more than talk about a pot of coffee.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

I think it's safe to say that AltLocke had it way better than original Locke - he's going to marry Peggy, and (it seems) is on good terms with his dad. But he was dead before making any deals with Jacob/Smokey so this theory doesn't apply to him.

Unless dead isn't dead.

As for Ben, I think it's a bit premature to judge how his alt-life is going until we hear him do more than talk about a pot of coffee.

Ben as the uppity workplace asshole was perfect.

[PenFoe]

Not exactly a new flash, but "Creators of 'Lost' say they won't tie up all those loose ends"

Not that I expected everything neatly wrapped up with a bow on it...but this line is bullshit.

"There's a lot of little questions that unfortunately we just don't have time to answer in the amount of time that we have left," co-creator Cuse told the uber-fans.

Didn't you guys set the timeline?

I think the biggest fear this whole time was that they didn't exactly plan this out that well, seems to be some validity there.

It's still gonna be awesome, but I think it's safe to say Chuck's not gonna get his answers.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Not exactly a new flash, but "Creators of 'Lost' say they won't tie up all those loose ends"

Not that I expected everything neatly wrapped up with a bow on it...but this line is bullshit.

"There's a lot of little questions that unfortunately we just don't have time to answer in the amount of time that we have left," co-creator Cuse told the uber-fans.

Didn't you guys set the timeline?

I think the biggest fear this whole time was that they didn't exactly plan this out that well, seems to be some validity there.

It's still gonna be awesome, but I think it's safe to say Chuck's not gonna get his answers.

I suspect they're more talking about some of the the non-central story lines that have cropped up along the way.

I think the writers at least had the big picture planned out from the start. They knew where they were starting and where they were ending, and had at least a basic sense of the general trajectory between the two.

It's in filling in 6 seasons worth of details and throwaway characters in between the start and the end where the writers wound up creating dead ends and tangents that may never be resolved.

I'd guess all we're missing is stuff that would be fodder for "The New Island Adventures of Rose and Bernard."

That said, I recently got to thinking... You know those ads they run for V during episodes of Lost where the lady alien talks directly to you, the Lost viewer? She says something about this being the show's "final televised season." Are they preparing to take Lost to the big screen after blue-balling us on some of these loose ends they don't have time to tie up?

"Nikki and Paulo in IMAX 3-D," anyone?

[Yeti]

Not exactly a new flash, but "Creators of 'Lost' say they won't tie up all those loose ends"

Not that I expected everything neatly wrapped up with a bow on it...but this line is bullshit.

"There's a lot of little questions that unfortunately we just don't have time to answer in the amount of time that we have left," co-creator Cuse told the uber-fans.

Didn't you guys set the timeline?

I think the biggest fear this whole time was that they didn't exactly plan this out that well, seems to be some validity there.

It's still gonna be awesome, but I think it's safe to say Chuck's not gonna get his answers.

I suspect they're more talking about some of the the non-central story lines that have cropped up along the way.

I think the writers at least had the big picture planned out from the start. They knew where they were starting and where they were ending, and had at least a basic sense of the general trajectory between the two.

It's in filling in 6 seasons worth of details and throwaway characters in between the start and the end where the writers wound up creating dead ends and tangents that may never be resolved.

I'd guess all we're missing is stuff that would be fodder for "The New Island Adventures of Rose and Bernard."

That said, I recently got to thinking... You know those ads they run for V during episodes of Lost where the lady alien talks directly to you, the Lost viewer? She says something about this being the show's "final televised season." Are they preparing to take Lost to the big screen after blue-balling us on some of these loose ends they don't have time to tie up?

"Nikki and Paulo in IMAX 3-D," anyone?

Nikki was a fuckable broad, sans penis, of course

[R-V]

Not exactly a new flash, but "Creators of 'Lost' say they won't tie up all those loose ends"

Not that I expected everything neatly wrapped up with a bow on it...but this line is bullshit.

"There's a lot of little questions that unfortunately we just don't have time to answer in the amount of time that we have left," co-creator Cuse told the uber-fans.

Didn't you guys set the timeline?

I think the biggest fear this whole time was that they didn't exactly plan this out that well, seems to be some validity there.

It's still gonna be awesome, but I think it's safe to say Chuck's not gonna get his answers.

I suspect they're more talking about some of the the non-central story lines that have cropped up along the way.

I think the writers at least had the big picture planned out from the start. They knew where they were starting and where they were ending, and had at least a basic sense of the general trajectory between the two.

It's in filling in 6 seasons worth of details and throwaway characters in between the start and the end where the writers wound up creating dead ends and tangents that may never be resolved.

I'd guess all we're missing is stuff that would be fodder for "The New Island Adventures of Rose and Bernard."

That said, I recently got to thinking... You know those ads they run for V during episodes of Lost where the lady alien talks directly to you, the Lost viewer? She says something about this being the show's "final televised season." Are they preparing to take Lost to the big screen after blue-balling us on some of these loose ends they don't have time to tie up?

"Nikki and Paulo in IMAX 3-D," anyone?

What Tank said. Also the DAMNING SENTENCE that you quote says that there are LITTLE questions they aren't going to answer. So we're not going to find out how Libby ended up in the looney bin. Big whoop.

I find all this "did they plan it stuff" tiresome. It's been an awesomely entertaining show. As long as there aren't any plot holes THE SIZE OF A SINGULARITY, I don't give a rat's ass.