Lost: The Final Boner

[PenFoe]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

[JD]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

[PenFoe]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

I will never forgive this show for all the retarded religious websites i've ended up on trying to do "research."

[Canadouche]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

I will never forgive this show for all the retarded religious websites i've ended up on trying to do "research."

I think Smoke Locke is meant to be Esau, who is Biblical Jacob's brother.  The Wiki article on the subject of Esau describes him as a "hunter," while his brother Jacob was shy and simple.  Esau and Jacob do not get along, battling each other regularly for their inheritance, but at his mother's request Esau vowed to never kill Jacob.  More interesting about this idea is that it's unclear as to which brother is the "good" one, arguably either can be seen as good or bad.

Just a thought.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

I will never forgive this show for all the retarded religious websites i've ended up on trying to do "research."

I think Smoke Locke is meant to be Esau, who is Biblical Jacob's brother.  The Wiki article on the subject of Esau describes him as a "hunter," while his brother Jacob was shy and simple.  Esau and Jacob do not get along, battling each other regularly for their inheritance, but at his mother's request Esau vowed to never kill Jacob.  More interesting about this idea is that it's unclear as to which brother is the "good" one, arguably either can be seen as good or bad.

Just a thought.

Way to figure that out for us...

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6594.msg178056#msg178056

FWIW...

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/07/lost_comiccon_highlights.html

Emerson fielded a question about the fans' nicknaming Jacob's rival "Esau" by saying, "We sometimes deal in Biblical iimagery, but we tend to dance in and back away from it. That might be too much, but I like the way your mind is working."

"You're good at this!" Damon told Emerson, marveling at how impressively he non-answered that.

[Slaky]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

I will never forgive this show for all the retarded religious websites i've ended up on trying to do "research."

I think Smoke Locke is meant to be Esau, who is Biblical Jacob's brother.  The Wiki article on the subject of Esau describes him as a "hunter," while his brother Jacob was shy and simple.  Esau and Jacob do not get along, battling each other regularly for their inheritance, but at his mother's request Esau vowed to never kill Jacob.  More interesting about this idea is that it's unclear as to which brother is the "good" one, arguably either can be seen as good or bad.

Just a thought.

Way to figure that out for us...

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6594.msg178056#msg178056

FWIW...

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/07/lost_comiccon_highlights.html

Emerson fielded a question about the fans' nicknaming Jacob's rival "Esau" by saying, "We sometimes deal in Biblical iimagery, but we tend to dance in and back away from it. That might be too much, but I like the way your mind is working."

"You're good at this!" Damon told Emerson, marveling at how impressively he non-answered that.

I think this "Henry Gale" may not be who he says he is. Stay tuned.

[Kermit IV]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

Every day, brother.  Every.  Damn.  Day.

[R-V]

Who was the little kid that talked to Smokey?  And why could Sawyer see him and not Alpert? 
I'm thinking it'd be too easy to say it's a young Jacob.

It is, but that's exactly what I said, too.  The kid sure looked like a younger version of Jacob.

Aaron?

Jacob and his replacement, the guardians of whatever it is that the island is or represents, seem to be the only thing keeping NotLocke from being released from his "trap" and "going home." NotLocke's end game (for getting "home"), then, would be to kill all of the possible replacements. The temple folk and Richard, presumably, would be trying to keep this from happening.

We already knew he couldn't himself kill Jacob. And, if he couldn't kill Jacob, perhaps he can't kill Jacob's replacement either. Or maybe even any of his potential replacements. And, if this is the case, he'd have to get someone else to do that dirty work for him, too.

I think, at the very least, this is where Sawyer fits into his plans at the moment.

He told Sawyer that Jacob would have come to him at a point in his life where he was angry and vulnerable. And that Jacob just pulled his strings while making him believe he was acting of his free will.

This (dramatic irony!) is obviously exactly what NotLocke himself is doing to Sawyer in 2007 (and what he previously did to Ben). He's pressing on Sawyer's anger and his resentment of the island, and it seems he's pressing it against the rest of the Losties.

Is he trying to manipulate them into killing each other for him?

A whole bucket full of THATjuice. I'd add this from the AV Club that I found plausible:

After possible thousands upon thousands of years plotting and waiting you would naturally assume the Smokey wouldn't be so rash as to break the rule he so painstakingly loopholed. And yes Jacob was more than likely mortally stabbed, and at that repeatedly. However, Smokey lost his cool because Jacob wasn't dying fast enough so he hurried it along. While Smokey could argue that Jacob's passing was inevitable/destined it seems from blonde lost boys' accusation that the kid at least (if not the Island itself) holds the opposite view.

Jacob may have looped Smokey's loophole, and there will be consequences, one of which might be that only Jacob gets to pick the candidate. If Smokey finds out that Sawyer can't help with getting off the Island we can only hope Sawyer can quickly produce a circle of ash (or is it black sand).

[R-V]

DPD. Significant that Kate wasn't mentioned in Esau's rundown of the Oceanic names Jacob wrote on the cave walls?

It was certainly compelling that Kate does not represent one of the familiar numbers (Locke = 4, Reyes = 8, Ford = 15, Jarrah = 16, Shephard = 23, and Kwon = 42).  We were looking for Austen and 108 but found neither.  What does this mean for Kate?  Obviously Jacob still visited and touched her, but she doesn’t represent any of those famous 6 numbers we’re used to hearing.

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2010/02/17/lost-episode-6%C3%9704-%E2%80%9Cthe-substitute%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-analysis/

Edited to add a rundown of all the candidates: http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2010/02/episode-6x04-substitute-candidates.html

[Wheezer]

Well Evil Locke as Satan seems pretty certain at this point.

I don't know my make believe religious tales that well, but isn't Satan's nemesis God?
Wouldn't that mean that Jacob was God and that now God is dead?

Because that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Does Satan have any other dudes who battle him?

I don't think Evil Locke is Satan.  I think he's just some dude that sometimes turns into smoke that wants to go home.  He's like the Ben Affleck character in "Dogma".

So, he's a fallen angel... Like Satan.

I will never forgive this show for all the retarded religious websites i've ended up on trying to do "research."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXQDa7GzPYw

[Yeti]

DPD. Significant that Kate wasn't mentioned in Esau's rundown of the Oceanic names Jacob wrote on the cave walls?

It was certainly compelling that Kate does not represent one of the familiar numbers (Locke = 4, Reyes = 8, Ford = 15, Jarrah = 16, Shephard = 23, and Kwon = 42).  We were looking for Austen and 108 but found neither.  What does this mean for Kate?  Obviously Jacob still visited and touched her, but she doesn't represent any of those famous 6 numbers we're used to hearing.

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2010/02/17/lost-episode-6%C3%9704-%E2%80%9Cthe-substitute%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-analysis/

Edited to add a rundown of all the candidates: http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2010/02/episode-6x04-substitute-candidates.html

Forgive me, but why 108?

[ChuckD]

DPD. Significant that Kate wasn't mentioned in Esau's rundown of the Oceanic names Jacob wrote on the cave walls?

It was certainly compelling that Kate does not represent one of the familiar numbers (Locke = 4, Reyes = 8, Ford = 15, Jarrah = 16, Shephard = 23, and Kwon = 42).  We were looking for Austen and 108 but found neither.  What does this mean for Kate?  Obviously Jacob still visited and touched her, but she doesn't represent any of those famous 6 numbers we're used to hearing.

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2010/02/17/lost-episode-6%C3%9704-%E2%80%9Cthe-substitute%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-analysis/

Edited to add a rundown of all the candidates: http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2010/02/episode-6x04-substitute-candidates.html

Forgive me, but why 108?

4+8+15+16+23+42=108

[R-V]

Forgive me, but why 108?

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/108

Also, the comment sections on the AV Club recaps are the tits. Can't figure out how to link to individual comments, but this is good stuff on faith/destiny vs. reason/free will.

I never got around to posting this after the season six premiere, but I was fairly certain that Jacob and Smokey represented the battle between free will and destiny. During their only scene together in season five, Jacob brings the Black Rock to the Island because he wants to see what will happen. Smokey maintains the same thing will always happen when people come to the Island - there will be destruction and death. Jacob disagrees.

When Jacob goes off-island to meet the survivors at certain points in their lives, he always appears to them when they're about to make a choice on who they will become. Therefore, I was fairly certain that Jacob represented free will and Smokey as destiny. Jacob saw humanity as able to change for the positive while Smokey was the pessimist. Smokey "judged" people and saw them unfit to live.

Now, with Smokey's conversation to Sawyer about free will and Jacob being the one pushing people toward their destiny, my whole theory is in shambles. I sense that neither Jacob nor Smokey are truly "evil," but neither have the best interest of others in their minds.

I'm beginning to think free will vs. destiny may not be the concepts we should be paying attention to, but instead faith vs. reason. The story of Locke is a story of faith, and in contrast it seems that UnLocke is a man of unquestioning reason. He doesn't ask people to follow him on blind faith, but instead explains his motives, and provides answers.

I kind of see those arguments as being intertwined though...faith and destiny go hand in hand, as do free will and reason. If you have faith then it's almost a forgone conclusion that you believe everything is guided by unseen hands/will turn out okay, etc, while having no real evidence to prove that. If you believe in free will then it's fiarly likely you are a big believer in reason--i.e. that things will not happen unless something is directly done to cause those things to happen.

Smokey/Esau maybe really is like Lucifer (the most appealing character in Paradise Lost) and Jacob really is something like the Judeo-Christian God and Smokey perfectly articulates my number one problem with the Judeo-Christian God, which is if God is all powerful why give humans free will? It's just fucking cruel and leads to all kinds of horrible suffering. Furthermore, the proffered "free will" is ultimately bullshit as it all plays out on a chess board of God's own design. To wit, Jacob manipulates every aspect of all of these peoples' lives to bring them to the island to then make them make impossible choices with no good answer which leads to all this suffering which he then terms "progress". And for what?

      The more I think about it the more I see the Man in Black as something closer to the "good guy", but that's probably ultimately more a reflection of my left-wing/anti-religious/pro-science/pro-reason sympathies than anything.

So far, Lost has offered a complex and disturbing portrait of the paternalistic interventionary God that's entirely in keeping with my reasons for thinking such a thing can't possibly exist.

      If it did, it would be a total asshat.

      However, Smokey is as much of an asshat as Jacob, if not even more.

I that was the most interesting part of the episode for me; that the show is widening the view of Jacob & His Nemesis to where you can see the possibility that , as Noel put it, MIB may not be Eeeeevilllll. I think it is pretty clear that he has been manipulating characters to achieve his own goals (selfishly? maybe not), but we've seen that Jacob is playing a similar game, and we don't know what either of their "goals" are exactly.

      In the same way I don't think LOST will ever fall on one side of a faith vs. reason debate, I'd be surprised if Jacob vs. MIB comes down to one side being the "winner" and I love that they are starting to bring in the gray between Jacob & MIB's white & black.

[Yeti]

Forgive me, but why 108?

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/108

I guess this is the shit I miss when I only start watching the show on a week to week basis in the last season.