Fuck its silent in here.......

[BH]

More importantly Law Enforcement can't protect everyone and usually show up after the crime has happened. There is no better means of deterrent than an armed public. Studies in prisons with criminals have shown if they had the choice between a non-armed house but a pretty good chance of getting arrested versus an armed house and no chance of getting arrested they would choose the unarmed house. I believe one of the main explanations given was that with the armed house that person isn't restrained by any kind of rules and regulations like a police officer is. The civilian with the gun is more likely to shoot first and ask questions later. The criminals were more afraid of armed citizens than the police. And that's how you get an effective deterrent. And its why Chicago on a regular basis has 50+ shootings in a weekend, the citizens aren't armed, so it's open season on them.

I just want to know who funds these studies, because I would like to sell them a bridge.

Did they ask the inmates if they'd prefer to get shot by a shotgun vs a handgun? That's the real question.

[MikeC]

Actually the study that is cited a lot is one done by our own justice department. I believe this is the one i was trying to recall from memory...

http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?id=117

Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;" 74% agreed that "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot."

A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." In asking felons what they personally thought about while committing crimes, 34% indicated that they thought about getting "shot at by police" or "shot by victim."

The data suggest that criminals may be a little more concerned about being caught by police and imprisoned than about being shot, but meeting the armed citizen clearly elicited fears of being shot. That deterrent effect of citizen gun ownership appeared in their responses to questions about actual encounters. Although 37% of those surveyed admitted that they personally had "run into a victim who was armed with a gun," that figure surpassed the 50% mark for armed criminals, an experience shared by 57% of the active gun predators. And 34% of the sample admitted to having been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim."

Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun." Clearly, armed citizens represent a real threat to criminals, a threat with which large numbers are personally familiar, or familiar with through the shared experiences of their fellow outlaws.

Did they ask the inmates if they'd prefer to get shot by a shotgun vs a handgun? That's the real question.

Don't know if this will answer your question...

The data show that an outright ban on handguns, such as is proposed by the National Coalition to Ban Handguns, would have nightmarish consequences. Most of the criminals who have previously used handguns--and especially those predators who have committed many crimes using handguns--said they would simply move to long guns which would be sawed down to concealable size. Outlawing handguns would simply make career criminals turn to what Wright describes as bigger, more lethal weapons.

If a ban on handguns was enacted, 64% of the criminal respondents said they would shift from a handgun to sawed-off rifles and shotguns. That finding was elicited from three-fourths of "handgun predators" and five eighths of those who had used a handgun more than once in crime. Wright says, "We would do well, by the way, to take this response seriously: most of the predators who said they would substitute the sawed-off shotgun also told us elsewhere in the questionnaire that they had in fact sawed off a shotgun at some time in their lives and that it would be 'very easy' for them to do so again. The possibility that even a few of the men who presently prowl the streets with handguns would, in the face of a handgun ban, prowl with sawed-off shotguns instead is itself good reason to think twice about the advisability of such a ban. That as many as three-quarters of them might do so causes one to tremble." Wright argues, then, that there are "sensible and humane" reasons for opposing a handgun ban.

[Chuck to Chuck]

[MikeC]

Every instance in human history where the government stepped in and took away peoples guns, its been genocide.

Nothing like a sweeping, overbroad, unsupported statement to kicks things off.

If you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously around here, it's at least in part because either an inability to reason logically or a simple lack of interest in dealing with actual facts (or maybe both) leads you to places that make no sense in a world of facts and people who reason logically.

And I feel like I can safely say that they sentence above is 100% plainly and categorically false as written. In fact, it's a pretty fucking ludicrous thing to write.

And its why Chicago on a regular basis has 50+ shootings in a weekend, the citizens aren't armed, so it's open season on them.

The majority of Chicago gun violence is gang-related. So most of it is not so much a matter of gun-toting urban youth targeting an unarmed populace as it is gun-toting gangbangers targeting other gun-toting gangbangers and shooting each other along with innocent bystanders.

Well its not like you offer up any evidence to the contrary. Maybe I over generalized with that statement, but taking away gun rights from populations has led to hundreds of millions of deaths in the last 100 years alone. That can not be denied, because the easiest way to control, and even exterminate people is to take away their right of self defense.

The Nazi's didn't enact gun control laws the Weimar Republic did to try and keep weapons out of Nazi's and Communist hands. But like human history has shown repeatedly it only serves to disarm the law abiding citizens, the criminals and the evil people will hold onto their weapons and use them against the disarmed people. The Nazi's used the existing law to target everyone but themselves, and then in 1938 expressly used gun control to prevent Jews from having weapons. We all know what happened to the Jews after that.

Stalin did much of the same thing but did it to his entire peasant class, 50 million or so died.

Mao would kidnap the richest people in his country, hold them for ransom. When the ransom was paid, and the person was returned they would kidnap them again and ask for their guns. This seemed like a hell of a deal, but it was a calculated to plan to disarm the public. 100+ million dead, maybe even more.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao all feared an uprising of their own people more than anything else. And the best way to dominate a country was to disarm its population. After that its pretty easy to kill as many people as you want.

Like i said the Sudan conflict is Genocide happening right now in the name of gun control. Take away peoples right of self-defense and human history has shown that the powerful will dominate the weak. Its happened over and over in human history. to deny it is simply absurd.

I am simply stating why Americans fight so hard to keep their gun rights. Whether you like it or not the founders of this nation knew damn well what human nature was like. The right to keep in bear arms is not only for self defense against criminals but self defense against your own government. And even our founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Federal Government and its actions. Its why their is so many checks and balances. One of those checks and balances is the 2nd Amendment.

Next you have to ask why was that written into our Constitution? Most of it derives from English history and the way they treated people and we didn't want that to happen in America.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In order to remain free, you must have the ability to fight for it, if it becomes necessary.

[Chuck to Chuck]

[CBStew]

Finally, something in this thread makes sense!

[Oleg]

Every instance in human history where the government stepped in and took away peoples guns, its been genocide.

Nothing like a sweeping, overbroad, unsupported statement to kicks things off.

If you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously around here, it's at least in part because either an inability to reason logically or a simple lack of interest in dealing with actual facts (or maybe both) leads you to places that make no sense in a world of facts and people who reason logically.

And I feel like I can safely say that they sentence above is 100% plainly and categorically false as written. In fact, it's a pretty fucking ludicrous thing to write.

And its why Chicago on a regular basis has 50+ shootings in a weekend, the citizens aren't armed, so it's open season on them.

The majority of Chicago gun violence is gang-related. So most of it is not so much a matter of gun-toting urban youth targeting an unarmed populace as it is gun-toting gangbangers targeting other gun-toting gangbangers and shooting each other along with innocent bystanders.

Well its not like you offer up any evidence to the contrary. Maybe I over generalized with that statement, but taking away gun rights from populations has led to hundreds of millions of deaths in the last 100 years alone. That can not be denied, because the easiest way to control, and even exterminate people is to take away their right of self defense.

The Nazi's didn't enact gun control laws the Weimar Republic did to try and keep weapons out of Nazi's and Communist hands. But like human history has shown repeatedly it only serves to disarm the law abiding citizens, the criminals and the evil people will hold onto their weapons and use them against the disarmed people. The Nazi's used the existing law to target everyone but themselves, and then in 1938 expressly used gun control to prevent Jews from having weapons. We all know what happened to the Jews after that.

Stalin did much of the same thing but did it to his entire peasant class, 50 million or so died.

Mao would kidnap the richest people in his country, hold them for ransom. When the ransom was paid, and the person was returned they would kidnap them again and ask for their guns. This seemed like a hell of a deal, but it was a calculated to plan to disarm the public. 100+ million dead, maybe even more.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao all feared an uprising of their own people more than anything else. And the best way to dominate a country was to disarm its population. After that its pretty easy to kill as many people as you want.

Like i said the Sudan conflict is Genocide happening right now in the name of gun control. Take away peoples right of self-defense and human history has shown that the powerful will dominate the weak. Its happened over and over in human history. to deny it is simply absurd.

I am simply stating why Americans fight so hard to keep their gun rights. Whether you like it or not the founders of this nation knew damn well what human nature was like. The right to keep in bear arms is not only for self defense against criminals but self defense against your own government. And even our founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Federal Government and its actions. Its why their is so many checks and balances. One of those checks and balances is the 2nd Amendment.

Next you have to ask why was that written into our Constitution? Most of it derives from English history and the way they treated people and we didn't want that to happen in America.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In order to remain free, you must have the ability to fight for it, if it becomes necessary.

You're a fucking piece of shit fear-mongerer.  Go fuck yourself.

Yes, we must have guns so we keep the likes of Hitler and Stalin out of our country!  Eat shit.

[Chuck to Chuck]

Congrats, Oleg.  You gave him exactly what he wants.

For a guy with no purpose coming here but to try to stir up shit and then leave (no effort at a conversation, no effort to participate in any other aspect of the group), there is but one answer to him.

Hogans.

[Oleg]

Congrats, Oleg.  You gave him exactly what he wants.

For a guy with no purpose coming here but to try to stir up shit and then leave (no effort at a conversation, no effort to participate in any other aspect of the group), there is but one answer to him.

Hogans.

Fuck that turdbag.  It made me feel better, damnit.  I don't give a shit what he wants.

Besides, the one thing I can appreciate is stirring up shit.

[Slaky]

Congrats, Oleg.  You gave him exactly what he wants.

For a guy with no purpose coming here but to try to stir up shit and then leave (no effort at a conversation, no effort to participate in any other aspect of the group), there is but one answer to him.

Hogans.

Fuck that turdbag.  It made me feel better, damnit.  I don't give a shit what he wants.

Besides, the one thing I can appreciate is stirring up shit.

I hear you take large wooden spoons into various porta potties.

[Oleg]

Congrats, Oleg.  You gave him exactly what he wants.

For a guy with no purpose coming here but to try to stir up shit and then leave (no effort at a conversation, no effort to participate in any other aspect of the group), there is but one answer to him.

Hogans.

Fuck that turdbag.  It made me feel better, damnit.  I don't give a shit what he wants.

Besides, the one thing I can appreciate is stirring up shit.

I hear you take large wooden spoons into various porta potties.

Just post a sign on 4 that says not to flush.

[Chuck to Chuck]

I hear you take large wooden spoons into various porta potties.

[MAD]

Congrats, Oleg.  You gave him exactly what he wants.

For a guy with no purpose coming here but to try to stir up shit and then leave (no effort at a conversation, no effort to participate in any other aspect of the group), there is but one answer to him.

Hogans.

Fuck that turdbag.  It made me feel better, damnit.  I don't give a shit what he wants.

Besides, the one thing I can appreciate is stirring up shit.

I hear you take large wooden spoons into various porta potties.

Just post a sign on 4 that says not to flush.

Cue Slaky's Hall-of-Fame bathroom epic?

[Quality Start Machine]

Every instance in human history where the government stepped in and took away peoples guns, its been genocide.

Nothing like a sweeping, overbroad, unsupported statement to kicks things off.

If you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously around here, it's at least in part because either an inability to reason logically or a simple lack of interest in dealing with actual facts (or maybe both) leads you to places that make no sense in a world of facts and people who reason logically.

And I feel like I can safely say that they sentence above is 100% plainly and categorically false as written. In fact, it's a pretty fucking ludicrous thing to write.

And its why Chicago on a regular basis has 50+ shootings in a weekend, the citizens aren't armed, so it's open season on them.

The majority of Chicago gun violence is gang-related. So most of it is not so much a matter of gun-toting urban youth targeting an unarmed populace as it is gun-toting gangbangers targeting other gun-toting gangbangers and shooting each other along with innocent bystanders.

Well its not like you offer up any evidence to the contrary. Maybe I over generalized with that statement, but taking away gun rights from populations has led to hundreds of millions of deaths in the last 100 years alone. That can not be denied, because the easiest way to control, and even exterminate people is to take away their right of self defense.

The Nazi's didn't enact gun control laws the Weimar Republic did to try and keep weapons out of Nazi's and Communist hands. But like human history has shown repeatedly it only serves to disarm the law abiding citizens, the criminals and the evil people will hold onto their weapons and use them against the disarmed people. The Nazi's used the existing law to target everyone but themselves, and then in 1938 expressly used gun control to prevent Jews from having weapons. We all know what happened to the Jews after that.

Stalin did much of the same thing but did it to his entire peasant class, 50 million or so died.

Mao would kidnap the richest people in his country, hold them for ransom. When the ransom was paid, and the person was returned they would kidnap them again and ask for their guns. This seemed like a hell of a deal, but it was a calculated to plan to disarm the public. 100+ million dead, maybe even more.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao all feared an uprising of their own people more than anything else. And the best way to dominate a country was to disarm its population. After that its pretty easy to kill as many people as you want.

Like i said the Sudan conflict is Genocide happening right now in the name of gun control. Take away peoples right of self-defense and human history has shown that the powerful will dominate the weak. Its happened over and over in human history. to deny it is simply absurd.

I am simply stating why Americans fight so hard to keep their gun rights. Whether you like it or not the founders of this nation knew damn well what human nature was like. The right to keep in bear arms is not only for self defense against criminals but self defense against your own government. And even our founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Federal Government and its actions. Its why their is so many checks and balances. One of those checks and balances is the 2nd Amendment.

Next you have to ask why was that written into our Constitution? Most of it derives from English history and the way they treated people and we didn't want that to happen in America.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In order to remain free, you must have the ability to fight for it, if it becomes necessary.

You're a fucking piece of shit fear-mongerer.  Go fuck yourself.

Yes, we must have guns so we keep the likes of Hitler and Stalin out of our country!  Eat shit.

they didn't keep YOU out.

[Oleg]

Every instance in human history where the government stepped in and took away peoples guns, its been genocide.

Nothing like a sweeping, overbroad, unsupported statement to kicks things off.

If you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously around here, it's at least in part because either an inability to reason logically or a simple lack of interest in dealing with actual facts (or maybe both) leads you to places that make no sense in a world of facts and people who reason logically.

And I feel like I can safely say that they sentence above is 100% plainly and categorically false as written. In fact, it's a pretty fucking ludicrous thing to write.

And its why Chicago on a regular basis has 50+ shootings in a weekend, the citizens aren't armed, so it's open season on them.

The majority of Chicago gun violence is gang-related. So most of it is not so much a matter of gun-toting urban youth targeting an unarmed populace as it is gun-toting gangbangers targeting other gun-toting gangbangers and shooting each other along with innocent bystanders.

Well its not like you offer up any evidence to the contrary. Maybe I over generalized with that statement, but taking away gun rights from populations has led to hundreds of millions of deaths in the last 100 years alone. That can not be denied, because the easiest way to control, and even exterminate people is to take away their right of self defense.

The Nazi's didn't enact gun control laws the Weimar Republic did to try and keep weapons out of Nazi's and Communist hands. But like human history has shown repeatedly it only serves to disarm the law abiding citizens, the criminals and the evil people will hold onto their weapons and use them against the disarmed people. The Nazi's used the existing law to target everyone but themselves, and then in 1938 expressly used gun control to prevent Jews from having weapons. We all know what happened to the Jews after that.

Stalin did much of the same thing but did it to his entire peasant class, 50 million or so died.

Mao would kidnap the richest people in his country, hold them for ransom. When the ransom was paid, and the person was returned they would kidnap them again and ask for their guns. This seemed like a hell of a deal, but it was a calculated to plan to disarm the public. 100+ million dead, maybe even more.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao all feared an uprising of their own people more than anything else. And the best way to dominate a country was to disarm its population. After that its pretty easy to kill as many people as you want.

Like i said the Sudan conflict is Genocide happening right now in the name of gun control. Take away peoples right of self-defense and human history has shown that the powerful will dominate the weak. Its happened over and over in human history. to deny it is simply absurd.

I am simply stating why Americans fight so hard to keep their gun rights. Whether you like it or not the founders of this nation knew damn well what human nature was like. The right to keep in bear arms is not only for self defense against criminals but self defense against your own government. And even our founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Federal Government and its actions. Its why their is so many checks and balances. One of those checks and balances is the 2nd Amendment.

Next you have to ask why was that written into our Constitution? Most of it derives from English history and the way they treated people and we didn't want that to happen in America.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In order to remain free, you must have the ability to fight for it, if it becomes necessary.

You're a fucking piece of shit fear-mongerer.  Go fuck yourself.

Yes, we must have guns so we keep the likes of Hitler and Stalin out of our country!  Eat shit.

they didn't keep YOU out.

See?  Doesn't work so well, does it.  And I got in while Reagan was on the watch (although we did start the process during Carter, so never mind).