Fuck its silent in here.......

[morpheus]

So does this mean all pro-lifers are in favor of universal health care and free abortions?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/12/AR2010031202287_pf.html

No.  Correlation <> causation.

True, albeit glib.

That said, this seems more than a little bit reasonable...

One key reason seems to be that all those countries provide health care for everybody at a reasonable cost. That has a profound effect on women contemplating what to do about an unwanted pregnancy.

The connection was explained to me by a wise and holy man, Cardinal Basil Hume. He was the senior Roman Catholic prelate of England and Wales when I lived in London; as a reporter and a Catholic, I got to know him.

In Britain, only 8 percent of the population is Catholic (compared with 25 percent in the United States). Abortion there is legal. Abortion is free. And yet British women have fewer abortions than Americans do. I asked Cardinal Hume why that is.

The cardinal said that there were several reasons but that one important explanation was Britain's universal health-care system. "If that frightened, unemployed 19-year-old knows that she and her child will have access to medical care whenever it's needed," Hume explained, "she's more likely to carry the baby to term. Isn't it obvious?"

A young woman I knew in Britain added another explanation. "If you're [sexually] active," she said, "the way to avoid abortion is to avoid pregnancy. Most of us do that with an IUD or a diaphragm. It means going to the doctor. But that's easy here, because anybody can go to the doctor free."

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

[Eli]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

That was one of the two possible explanations.

[morpheus]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

That was one of the two possible explanations.

Ah.  So you're telling me that the proven cause-and effect of "subsidize it and more of it will happen" will be more than counteracted by the "oh, my baby will have 'free' healthcare (paid for by someone else, of course) so I'll carry it to term" phenomenon?  Maybe, but I'd like to see more than a theory posited.  Are there lots of U.S. women aborting their babies because they don't think that baby will get medical care?

This sounds an awful lot like the "health outcomes are awful in the US, so clearly the US needs universal health care" argument to me.  There's a lot more going on there than the simple and reasonable sounding explanation.

[Eli]

This sounds an awful lot like the "health outcomes are awful in the US, so clearly the US needs universal health care" argument to me. 

And that sounds an awful lot like a STRAWMAN to me.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

[flannj]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe.  

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

I'd like to hear TDubbs take on this.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

That was one of the two possible explanations.

Ah.  So you're telling me that the proven cause-and effect of "subsidize it and more of it will happen" will be more than counteracted by the "oh, my baby will have 'free' healthcare (paid for by someone else, of course) so I'll carry it to term" phenomenon?

Subsidize what and more of it will happen?

Subsidized abortions? Subsidized childbirth? Subsidized contraception?

[morpheus]

This sounds an awful lot like the "health outcomes are awful in the US, so clearly the US needs universal health care" argument to me. 

And that sounds an awful lot like a STRAWMAN to me.

From wiki: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1]  To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Here's the problem: I didn't misrepresent anyone's positions.  I didn't claim to have refuted anything.  I only pointed out the similarity of the two situations.  Is that a STRAWMAN?

If I say that the question of whether "touchdowns" is an important stat in evaluating a quarterback is similar to the question of whether "runs batted in" is an important stat in evaluating a hitter... did I just raise a STRAWMAN?

[morpheus]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Or "No glove, no love"...

[Slaky]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

I don't know which way I'm supposed to feel about the issue. I don't know if doctors would suddenly or gradually stop being good at doctoring because the government is running our healthcare. I think there are good doctors and there are shitty doctors.

I don't know how much more I'd have to pay a month to be a part of a government run healthcare program. I know I pay a lot as it is and I still only get covered for 80% after the deductible.

I don't know how universal health care would work in a huge country like the United States compared to the smooth sailing it has in the much less populous European countries, specifically Norway and Sweden. I do know it would be cool if I could have more than three days off to be with my son after he's born. I also know that you guys don't want to pay for my ability to do that.

So that's pretty much where I am. Stuck in neutral. Glad I could barely contribute to this discussion.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Or "No glove, no love"...

Hence my emphasis on "to take it upon themselves."

[morpheus]

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

Just curious... what exactly appalls her about it?  Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe) or the fact that it's not "given" to everyone?  (given is in scare quotes because the government can't give something to *everyone*... it can only take from one person and give to another)  Or is it something else?

[Gilgamesh]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

I don't know which way I'm supposed to feel about the issue. I don't know if doctors would suddenly or gradually stop being good at doctoring because the government is running our healthcare. I think there are good doctors and there are shitty doctors.

I don't know how much more I'd have to pay a month to be a part of a government run healthcare program. I know I pay a lot as it is and I still only get covered for 80% after the deductible.

I don't know how universal health care would work in a huge country like the United States compared to the smooth sailing it has in the much less populous European countries, specifically Norway and Sweden. I do know it would be cool if I could have more than three days off to be with my son after he's born. I also know that you guys don't want to pay for my ability to do that.

So that's pretty much where I am. Stuck in neutral. Glad I could barely contribute to this discussion.

They also kill themselves alot and pay like 85% in taxes to the government, so it's a tradeoff.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

[Bort]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

I don't know which way I'm supposed to feel about the issue. I don't know if doctors would suddenly or gradually stop being good at doctoring because the government is running our healthcare. I think there are good doctors and there are shitty doctors.

I don't know how much more I'd have to pay a month to be a part of a government run healthcare program. I know I pay a lot as it is and I still only get covered for 80% after the deductible.

I don't know how universal health care would work in a huge country like the United States compared to the smooth sailing it has in the much less populous European countries, specifically Norway and Sweden. I do know it would be cool if I could have more than three days off to be with my son after he's born. I also know that you guys don't want to pay for my ability to do that.

So that's pretty much where I am. Stuck in neutral. Glad I could barely contribute to this discussion.

They also kill themselves alot and pay like 85% in taxes to the government, so it's a tradeoff.

Can't make an omelet without breaking a few Swedes.


I suspect that suicide rate has a lot more to do with the 6 month night every year.