Fuck its silent in here.......

[Powdered Toast Man]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

I don't know which way I'm supposed to feel about the issue. I don't know if doctors would suddenly or gradually stop being good at doctoring because the government is running our healthcare. I think there are good doctors and there are shitty doctors.

I don't know how much more I'd have to pay a month to be a part of a government run healthcare program. I know I pay a lot as it is and I still only get covered for 80% after the deductible.

I don't know how universal health care would work in a huge country like the United States compared to the smooth sailing it has in the much less populous European countries, specifically Norway and Sweden. I do know it would be cool if I could have more than three days off to be with my son after he's born. I also know that you guys don't want to pay for my ability to do that.

So that's pretty much where I am. Stuck in neutral. Glad I could barely contribute to this discussion.

They also kill themselves alot and pay like 85% in taxes to the government, so it's a tradeoff.

Fuck that noise.

And, I sort of understand Slaky's neutral post.

[CT III]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

Free condoms, yes.

Less so diaphragms or IUDs or birth control pills or various other means for women to take it upon themselves to avoid unwanted pregnancies (beyond "keep your pants on, sweetheart").

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

I don't know which way I'm supposed to feel about the issue. I don't know if doctors would suddenly or gradually stop being good at doctoring because the government is running our healthcare. I think there are good doctors and there are shitty doctors.

I don't know how much more I'd have to pay a month to be a part of a government run healthcare program. I know I pay a lot as it is and I still only get covered for 80% after the deductible.

I don't know how universal health care would work in a huge country like the United States compared to the smooth sailing it has in the much less populous European countries, specifically Norway and Sweden. I do know it would be cool if I could have more than three days off to be with my son after he's born. I also know that you guys don't want to pay for my ability to do that.

So that's pretty much where I am. Stuck in neutral. Glad I could barely contribute to this discussion.

I'm pretty sure you can take 12 weeks off, they just don't have to pay your for them. 

[Chuck to Chuck]

I suspect that suicide rate has a lot more to do with the 6 month night every year.

It also keeps healthcare costs down.

Hey!

[morpheus]

I suspect that suicide rate has a lot more to do with the 6 month night every year.

It also keeps healthcare costs down.

Hey!

Self-rationing?  Self-convened Death Panels!

[Pre]

Sounds great.  You're telling me that there isn't enough free contraception in the US?  I find that hard to believe. 

My uncle-in-law is on the board of a county healthcare district thing in the Joliet area
and he's talked several times about how hard they are working to get donations and
funding for effective birth control for their poverty to lower class patient base.  There's
a whole lot of women that want to take the shot or pill based birth control that can't
afford it and end up pregnant because their boyfriends or husbands don't want to
wear rubbers.  I know that's a single example, but "I find that hard to believe" isn't
exactly a counter example.

[Slaky]

Here's what I know: my communist, unAmerican, socialist, Nazi, third world scum wife was and remains appalled at the healthcare in the United States.

Just curious... what exactly appalls her about it?  Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe) or the fact that it's not "given" to everyone?  (given is in scare quotes because the government can't give something to *everyone*... it can only take from one person and give to another)  Or is it something else?

No, it's not the quality of care. It's the cost. Knowing that if she fell and broke her arm, it'd cost a good chunk of income. At home, it wouldn't cost her anything upfront. Yes, she and I and you understand that they are taxed to make up for that.

Per capita, Norwegians spend about 5 grand a year on health care. Americans spend over 7 grand. They don't have to worry about which insurance covers you for which doctors. If they're hurt or sick, they just go to the doctor and they don't have to worry about billing. Are their doctors worse/dumber than ours? Of course not. There's no way to convince anyone of that because anyone can cherry pick a medical horror story from anywhere and paint with a broad brush. There are good doctors and bad doctors in every country.

For her, it was quite a culture shock. Put yourself in those shoes. I'm sure you can understand why she would feel that way.

Data for those numbers is here: http://www.topforeignstocks.com/2009/07/03/a-comparison-of-us-health-care-spending-with-other-oecd-countries

[Eli]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

[morpheus]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Because the reward for being a doctor is higher here.  INCENTIVES.

[morpheus]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Because the reward for being a doctor is higher here.  INCENTIVES.

DPD.  And because ELI IS RIGHT!!!!

[CT III]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Because the reward for being a doctor is higher here.  INCENTIVES.

So what you're saying is that being a higher paid doctor means you're a better doctor?

[Gilgamesh]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Because the reward for being a doctor really high-paid specialist in a useless field is higher here.  INCENTIVES.

Primary care doctor'd.

[Slaky]

I can't even tell who's serious and who's joking. Except for Eli.

Here:

American doctors are clearly the best doctors because they get paid so much more to heal people quicker. In countries with socialized medicine, the doctors don't give a shit and happily watch their patients die.

[Eli]

I can't even tell who's serious and who's joking. Except for Eli.

I'm mostly just in an all-caps kind of mood.  This thread lends itself well to that.

[morpheus]

Is it the quality of care (which I would find hard to believe)...?

Why would you find it hard to believe that quality of medical care might be worse here than in Scandinavia?

BECAUSE AMERICA HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Because the reward for being a doctor really high-paid specialist in a useless field is higher here.  INCENTIVES.

Primary care doctor'd.

Spoken like a man who's seen the best of what LA plastic surgeons have to offer.

[Slaky]

I can't even tell who's serious and who's joking. Except for Eli.

I'm mostly just in an all-caps kind of mood.  This thread lends itself well to that.

I probably should have kept to myself.

I'm sure my points will get misinterpreted. All I'm saying is this:

Doctors can be good and bad regardless of the healthcare system they work under. I pay a lot for 80% coverage plus a deductible. I do not know how universal health care would change what I pay. They pay less per capita in other countries.

Those are facts from where I sit.