Fuck its silent in here.......

[powen01]

So, if Obama wants to run in 2012 as a fiscal conservative, can he, by your statement, not be constrained by his prior actions?  What is to prevent him from campaigning as this, per your articulation?  Can't he just say, "that was the old Obama, this is the new Obama."  

Principles only mean something when they are inconvenient to yourself.  If someone in your party, either the President or some school board member in Bumfuck, Mississippi, isn't abiding by your principles, then call them out.  Same goes for the Democrats.  If principles mean anything, stand by them, not just when the locks changes on the White House doors.  

Actions mean more than words.

What do you want?  Do you want me to just agree that everyone in government is always going to increase spending?  Or can I hope that at least one of the parties can control itself at some future point?  I don't understand what you are getting at, other than saying "those guys voted for entitlements back in 2004 or whenever, therefore they cannot be against increased entitlements now."

I was against Part D in 2004.  Does that make my views today acceptable?

Honest question, do you ever get sick of having the politicians you are given the choice to elect let you down? I suppose this could be addressed to anyone, not just Morph.

I know I lean left but I don't consider myself a democrat by any means. In that vein, I'm continually annoyed with/disappointed in/fed up with people from all parties. I realize the only way to shape the country the way you'd like to see it is to be active and vote and that's great. It just seems to me that if your guys get in office they don't do what they promised/what you voted for. If the other guys get in, they don't help you either.

Seems like there's never a winner in this stuff. Hence, disillusionment. I really enjoy reading about history and how things got to be the way they are. With that, you'd think I'd be more interested in helping shape current policy. Truth is, it's just too frustrating to get over involved.

I will finish this misplaced mini-rant by saying that I appreciate you and TJ and anyone else who isn't Mike C or his alter-ego Freakmaster giving your differing point of views without resorting to...well...the shit Mike C posts.

I actually agree with most of what you wrote.

I post the way i do now because its fun to be on the other end nit picking the shit out of your party like you guys did to Republicans over the last 8 years. I love posting stuff that shows your politicians as scumbags, liars, and portrays them as corrupt as shit. You guys got the ball, you guys can now do it way you said you were going to do it. Be the Democrats haven't done jack shit about corruption, they just have doubled down and been twice a sneaky and corrupt.

I will keep flinging the mud, because its fun to expose the hypocrisy of your views and stances when you decry a Republican, but let a Democrat slip by. I get amusement out of it, you guys just get pissy and moan and attack me instead of addressing why Mr. Obama is saying one thing and doing another. Slap each other on the ass some more, if it makes you feel better at night.

Speaking of which ... An open letter to conservatives. 

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed. 

[Slaky]

So, if Obama wants to run in 2012 as a fiscal conservative, can he, by your statement, not be constrained by his prior actions?  What is to prevent him from campaigning as this, per your articulation?  Can't he just say, "that was the old Obama, this is the new Obama."  

Principles only mean something when they are inconvenient to yourself.  If someone in your party, either the President or some school board member in Bumfuck, Mississippi, isn't abiding by your principles, then call them out.  Same goes for the Democrats.  If principles mean anything, stand by them, not just when the locks changes on the White House doors.  

Actions mean more than words.

What do you want?  Do you want me to just agree that everyone in government is always going to increase spending?  Or can I hope that at least one of the parties can control itself at some future point?  I don't understand what you are getting at, other than saying "those guys voted for entitlements back in 2004 or whenever, therefore they cannot be against increased entitlements now."

I was against Part D in 2004.  Does that make my views today acceptable?

Honest question, do you ever get sick of having the politicians you are given the choice to elect let you down? I suppose this could be addressed to anyone, not just Morph.

I know I lean left but I don't consider myself a democrat by any means. In that vein, I'm continually annoyed with/disappointed in/fed up with people from all parties. I realize the only way to shape the country the way you'd like to see it is to be active and vote and that's great. It just seems to me that if your guys get in office they don't do what they promised/what you voted for. If the other guys get in, they don't help you either.

Seems like there's never a winner in this stuff. Hence, disillusionment. I really enjoy reading about history and how things got to be the way they are. With that, you'd think I'd be more interested in helping shape current policy. Truth is, it's just too frustrating to get over involved.

I will finish this misplaced mini-rant by saying that I appreciate you and TJ and anyone else who isn't Mike C or his alter-ego Freakmaster giving your differing point of views without resorting to...well...the shit Mike C posts.

I actually agree with most of what you wrote.

I post the way i do now because its fun to be on the other end nit picking the shit out of your party like you guys did to Republicans over the last 8 years. I love posting stuff that shows your politicians as scumbags, liars, and portrays them as corrupt as shit. You guys got the ball, you guys can now do it way you said you were going to do it. Be the Democrats haven't done jack shit about corruption, they just have doubled down and been twice a sneaky and corrupt.

I will keep flinging the mud, because its fun to expose the hypocrisy of your views and stances when you decry a Republican, but let a Democrat slip by. I get amusement out of it, you guys just get pissy and moan and attack me instead of addressing why Mr. Obama is saying one thing and doing another. Slap each other on the ass some more, if it makes you feel better at night.

Speaking of which ... An open letter to conservatives.  

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

[powen01]

So, if Obama wants to run in 2012 as a fiscal conservative, can he, by your statement, not be constrained by his prior actions?  What is to prevent him from campaigning as this, per your articulation?  Can't he just say, "that was the old Obama, this is the new Obama."  

Principles only mean something when they are inconvenient to yourself.  If someone in your party, either the President or some school board member in Bumfuck, Mississippi, isn't abiding by your principles, then call them out.  Same goes for the Democrats.  If principles mean anything, stand by them, not just when the locks changes on the White House doors.  

Actions mean more than words.

What do you want?  Do you want me to just agree that everyone in government is always going to increase spending?  Or can I hope that at least one of the parties can control itself at some future point?  I don't understand what you are getting at, other than saying "those guys voted for entitlements back in 2004 or whenever, therefore they cannot be against increased entitlements now."

I was against Part D in 2004.  Does that make my views today acceptable?

Honest question, do you ever get sick of having the politicians you are given the choice to elect let you down? I suppose this could be addressed to anyone, not just Morph.

I know I lean left but I don't consider myself a democrat by any means. In that vein, I'm continually annoyed with/disappointed in/fed up with people from all parties. I realize the only way to shape the country the way you'd like to see it is to be active and vote and that's great. It just seems to me that if your guys get in office they don't do what they promised/what you voted for. If the other guys get in, they don't help you either.

Seems like there's never a winner in this stuff. Hence, disillusionment. I really enjoy reading about history and how things got to be the way they are. With that, you'd think I'd be more interested in helping shape current policy. Truth is, it's just too frustrating to get over involved.

I will finish this misplaced mini-rant by saying that I appreciate you and TJ and anyone else who isn't Mike C or his alter-ego Freakmaster giving your differing point of views without resorting to...well...the shit Mike C posts.

I actually agree with most of what you wrote.

I post the way i do now because its fun to be on the other end nit picking the shit out of your party like you guys did to Republicans over the last 8 years. I love posting stuff that shows your politicians as scumbags, liars, and portrays them as corrupt as shit. You guys got the ball, you guys can now do it way you said you were going to do it. Be the Democrats haven't done jack shit about corruption, they just have doubled down and been twice a sneaky and corrupt.

I will keep flinging the mud, because its fun to expose the hypocrisy of your views and stances when you decry a Republican, but let a Democrat slip by. I get amusement out of it, you guys just get pissy and moan and attack me instead of addressing why Mr. Obama is saying one thing and doing another. Slap each other on the ass some more, if it makes you feel better at night.

Speaking of which ... An open letter to conservatives. 

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed. 

Totally agree.

I was thinking of what you said earlier actually.  I'm just tired of the tactics both parties use to corral their respective media outlets to get across their talking points...  It's all marketing; keywords and phrases to appeal to an individual's values and morals...  and unfortunately, it works. 

Political discourse in this country might as well be run by Vince McMahon:  "Can you smell what I'm cooking Cheney?" or



"Oh yeahhhhhhhhh, homos not gonna get the old ball and chain in this country!!!  Yeahhhhhhhhhh!"

[Canadouche]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

[Tinker to Evers to Chance]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

[Canadouche]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

[Wheezer]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

Better to have stayed Catholic and quoted de Tocqueville.

[R-V]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

But that guy was kind of funny.

[CBStew]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

He outed Seinfeld as an anti-dentite.

[Chuck to Chuck]

Whatley's come a long way.

[morpheus]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

Ahem.  http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6963.0

[Canadouche]

Nice letter, not enough time in the day to follow all of those links, but it made its point.  I suppose some of the points could be taken by both parties...  The behavior seems pretty similar from both sides when the roles are reversed.  

Totally agree.

Problem is most of the whining and crying seems to be from the politicians themselves. That's what makes me most upset. Or apathetic. I don't know which.

I also agree.  Washington was warning us about a party system of government way back in 1776, saying (among other things) "However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

Generally speaking, with a few ideological exceptions, members of both parties tend to serve the same corporate masters and represent the same billion-dollar interests.  Sad as it sounds, maybe we're best off when they're locked in a stalemate, because if "nothing is getting accomplished," then perhaps they aren't lube-free fucking us quite as hard.

George Washington is OUR guy.  You fucking Canadians don't get to claim him.

I'm like the dentist from Seinfeld who converted from Catholicism to Judaism for the jokes.

Ahem.  http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6963.0

Ahem, ahem.  http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7174.msg210023#msg210023

[Oleg]

Honest question, do you ever get sick of having the politicians you are given the choice to elect let you down? I suppose this could be addressed to anyone, not just Morph.

I know I lean left but I don't consider myself a democrat by any means. In that vein, I'm continually annoyed with/disappointed in/fed up with people from all parties. I realize the only way to shape the country the way you'd like to see it is to be active and vote and that's great. It just seems to me that if your guys get in office they don't do what they promised/what you voted for. If the other guys get in, they don't help you either.

Seems like there's never a winner in this stuff. Hence, disillusionment. I really enjoy reading about history and how things got to be the way they are. With that, you'd think I'd be more interested in helping shape current policy. Truth is, it's just too frustrating to get over involved.

I will finish this misplaced mini-rant by saying that I appreciate you and TJ and anyone else who isn't Mike C or his alter-ego Freakmaster giving your differing point of views without resorting to...well...the shit Mike C posts.

And, there's the rub.  Chuck always likes to talk about what politicians do to get elected; and then he's constantly surprised that they sometimes back off their promises once in office.  I think it's all about expectations.

I voted for Obama because there were things that were in the Democrat platform that I agreed with.  Health care reform being one thing; ending the wars another.  I think something needs to be done about climate change.  I think we need to have an honest conversation about reforming our judicial system, including a major reform of our drug laws and the death penalty.  I believe in heavier regulation of the banking industry (and of business as a whole) to protect consumers because I think it's the people who understand those industries the best who are most able and willing to exploit the consumer's misunderstandings of such things.  There is nothing in what I believe (other than some environmental conservation ideas from some of the western republicans) that jive with anything Republican.

However, does that mean that I have to be disappointed in this administration?

Well, so far, we still have two wars.  We have a health care reform law that's missing some major pieces that I'd want.  It looks like any banking regulation reforms will end up being gutted by the banks' lobbyists who have a shitload if influence among the committee-people from both sides of the aisle.  There's been some preliminary talk about doing something about climate change and at least we have an administration that has at least recognized that there's such thing as a Kyoto Treaty and maybe it could be a good idea.  We've had talk of closing Gitmo.  If Jim Webb gets his way, at least we may soon get some sort of a commission that may look at some judicial reforms sometime in the next few years.

All of this is disappointing; but I also understand that getting elected on certain promises also means that you have to actually govern and that may mean that you have discard certain promises in order to make sure others are kept (realty dictated that we were not going to get to see this health care bill for 5 days before the president signed it, get over it).

It certainly doesn't mean that anyone should give up on the democratic process.  You bet your ass I'm voting Green Party or some other third party for the Senate and, probably, for governor.  I would challenge Morph and TJ to do the same and vote Libertarian, but I know that's not realistic because it would be asking someone to throw away their vote because our Democratic system sucks.

Oh fuck.  I have now spent 10 minutes writing this thing and i don't just want to delete it; but I don't think this really says anything either.

Do you guys notice that we have the best discussion here when we talk about ideas and policies rather than about politicians and people?  And, that Mike C always prefers to talk about politicians and people rather than about ideas or policy?  I mean, I'm still not sure what he believes in.  Maybe that's for the best.

[Chuck to Chuck]

And, there's the rub.  Chuck always likes to talk about what politicians do to get elected; and then he's constantly surprised that they sometimes back off their promises once in office.  

On the contrary.  I'm not surprised they back off their promises.  I'm surprised they even attempt to follow through with any of them unless those promises help them get re-elected.

[Canadouche]

Something I find pretty disappointing is that, even with a super majority, it took more than a year to accomplish one big goal.  If it takes that long with that SM, how can they possibly do anything once they've lost control of Congress?

If the next big target is something like Tort Reform -- a popular platform among Conservatives that no Liberal should disagree with -- then I'll be pretty happy.