Fuck its silent in here.......

[CBStew]

Is it a crime to invest money overseas?  No.  But I think that if someone has money to invest and wants to be president that it certainly looks better if he invests it in the American economy rather than in Dubai.   

[thehawk]

For the record, I don't think Morph is an asshole, but ... geez.

Thanks, Eli.  For the record, I take no stand on the financial knowledge of those on this fringe messageboard... However in hindsight I see that phrase does look assholish, and I apologize for that.  Poor choice of words.

I was, by way of clarification, referring to those raising the issue in the first place as part of the campaign.  I suppose they could be very well educated on financial matters and are just deliberately misleading, since there is nothing wrong with investing one's money internationally, either in the moral or legal sense.

I know a little about money, and I think you are being a bit hyperbolic. There are certainly lots of good reasons to invest overseas  (in fact anyone with any savings at all should do so to some degree).  But people have and do put money overseas to avoid rightful creditors, avoid taxes (thus the new IRS reporting rules regarding overseas investments which are a royal pain) or to avoid financial disclosure laws (which may well be a problem for Mitt, as he was subject to those rules as Governor of Massachusetts).

As for morals, Mitt is a main beneficiary of Citizens United, which now allows cubic assloads of money to flow into campaigns. It is an open political question as to how much of disclosure of that "speech" should be required, and in my mind Romney's seeming evasion on his own personal finances is relevant to that point.  Romney is also running on jobs, jobs, jobs, and I would posit that investment in Cayman Islands hedge funds are not typically an efficient method of US job creation (of course its hard to say, because we really don't know the trading strategies or investments of the funds themselves, but its safe to assume he did not invest in an overseas tax-free related fund to a US private equity fund).

With that said, I am uncomfortable with the demonizing of Romney because he is rich or demonizing hedge funds or private equity funds or overseas funds in general  (and that clearly is out there).  Mitt needs to set straight what this money is, and why it wasn't previously reported.

[CBStew]

Is there a record of any post on this thread ever changing anyone else's mind?  

[J. Walter Weatherman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/business/economy/the-spreading-scourge-of-corporate-corruption.html

...

The misconduct of the financial industry no longer surprises most Americans. Only about one in five has much trust in banks, according to Gallup polls, about half the level in 2007. And it's not just banks that are frowned upon. Trust in big business overall is declining. Sixty-two percent of Americans believe corruption is widespread across corporate America. According to Transparency International, an anticorruption watchdog, nearly three in four Americans believe that corruption has increased over the last three years.

We should be alarmed that corporate wrongdoing has come to be seen as such a routine occurrence. Capitalism cannot function without trust. As the Nobel laureate Kenneth Arrow observed, "Virtually every commercial transaction has within itself an element of trust."

The parade of financiers accused of misdeeds, booted from the executive suite and even occasionally jailed, is undermining this essential element. Have corporations lost whatever ethical compass they once had? Or does it just look that way because we are paying more attention than we used to?

...

Last year, the economists Justin Wolfers and Betsey Stevenson from the University of Pennsylvania published a study suggesting that trust in government and business falls when unemployment rises. "Much of the recent decline in confidence — particularly in the financial sector — may simply be a standard response to a cyclical downturn," they wrote.

And waves of mistrust can spread broadly. After years of dismal employment prospects, Americans are losing trust in a broad range of institutions, including Congress, the Supreme Court, the presidency, public schools, labor unions and the church.

...

Company executives are paid to maximize profits, not to behave ethically. Evidence suggests that they behave as corruptly as they can, within whatever constraints are imposed by law and reputation. In 1977, the United States Congress passed the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, to stop the rampant practice of bribing foreign officials. Business by American multinationals in the most corrupt countries dropped. But they didn't stop bribing. And American companies have been lobbying against the law ever since.

Extrapolating from frauds that were uncovered during and after the dot-com bubble, the economists Luigi Zingales and Adair Morse of the University of Chicago and Alexander Dyck of the University of Toronto estimated conservatively that in any given year a fraud was being committed by 11 to 13 percent of the large companies in the country.

Yet it may be wrong to shrug off the latest boomlet of corporate crimes and misdemeanors as a mere reflection of the business cycle. Americans appear to believe that corruption has become more prevalent over the years. And some indicators suggest they may be right.

In 2001, Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index ranked the United States as the 16th least-corrupt country. By last year, the nation had fallen to 24th place. The World Bank also reports a weakening of corruption controls in the United States since the late 1990s, so that it is falling behind most other developed nations.

...

Bigger markets allow bigger frauds. Bigger companies, with more complex balance sheets, have more places to hide them. And banks, when they get big enough that no government will let them fail, have the biggest incentive of all. A 20-year-old study by the economists Paul Romer and George Akerlof pointed out that the most lucrative strategy for executives at too-big-to-fail banks would be to loot them to pay themselves vast rewards — knowing full well that the government would save them from bankruptcy.

Globalization can encourage corruption, as companies compete tooth and claw for new markets. And the furious rush of corporate cash into the political process — which differs from bribery in that companies pay politicians to change laws rather than bureaucrats to ignore them — is unlikely to foment ethical behavior.

The inexorable rise of income inequality is also likely to encourage fraud, fostering resentment and undermining trust in capitalism's institutions and rules. Economic research shows that participants in contests in which the winner takes all are much more likely to cheat. And the United States is becoming a winner-takes-all economy.

It's hard to fathom the broader social implications of corporate wrongdoing. But its most long-lasting impact may be on Americans' trust in the institutions that underpin the nation's liberal market democracy.

Stick: poked.

[Eli]

Is there a record of any post on this thread ever changing anyone else's mind?  

MikeC quit his day job and went to work in Kucinich's office.

[Slaky]

Is there a record of any post on this thread ever changing anyone else's mind?  

MikeC quit his day job and went to work in Kucinich's office.

Or died. Whichever.

[Slaky]

If America sucks so bad how come Tonker is paying money to come here?

THATS WHAT I THOUGHT

[CBStew]

If America sucks so bad how come Tonker is paying money to come here?

THATS WHAT I THOUGHT

Has anyone ever seen Tonker's birth certificate?  I have it on good authority that he was not born in the United States.

[Quality Start Machine]

If America sucks so bad how come Tonker is paying money to come here?

THATS WHAT I THOUGHT

Has anyone ever seen Tonker's birth certificate?  I have it on good authority that he was not born in the United States.

Since Tonkner is Australian, his birth certificate is on a boomerang. He's tried showing it to us, but it keeps going back to him.

[Quality Start Machine]

Why is it a big deal for anyone to have an offshore bank account?  And, since you don't consider a bank account an "investment" for some reason (I always have), I should also ask why you think anyone would bother putting their money in a bank at all, whether it's onshore or offshore? 

As for the idea that I somehow put up a strawman here... I guess I don't really understand the arguments of the financially uneducated, so perhaps it is possible that I misrepresented them (although I believe "strawman" is deliberate misrepresentation, of which I did no such thing).

So much time has been wasted on something that means nothing at all as far as who would make the better President.  Seriously, if this is the best that the Dems have, wow.  It's disappointing, really.

Of course it's not a big deal to have offshore investments.

But when you're running for President mainly on the proposition that cutting taxes for people like Mitt Romney will spur job creation in the United States, except for the fact that even in this cheddar-friendly tax structure, that cheddar is leaving these shores, I'd say the Republicans are by far the larger disappointment.

[Eli]

Since Tonkner is Australian, his birth certificate is on a boomerang.

He's tried showing it to us, but it keeps going back to him.

[R-V]

I'm going to start prefacing sentences with, "I guess I don't really understand the arguments of the financially uneducated" just to see what it feels like to be a giant asshole.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-romney-hamptons-fundraiser-20120708,0,4909639.story

A New York City donor a few cars back, who also would not give her name, said Romney needed to do a better job connecting. "I don't think the common person is getting it," she said from the passenger seat of a Range Rover stamped with East Hampton beach permits. "Nobody understands why Obama is hurting them.

"We've got the message," she added. "But my college kid, the baby sitters, the nails ladies -- everybody who's got the right to vote -- they don't understand what's going on. I just think if you're lower income -- one, you're not as educated, two, they don't understand how it works, they don't understand how the systems work, they don't understand the impact."

Oleg is a nails lady? I KNEW IT.

[J. Walter Weatherman]

I'm going to start prefacing sentences with, "I guess I don't really understand the arguments of the financially uneducated" just to see what it feels like to be a giant asshole.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-romney-hamptons-fundraiser-20120708,0,4909639.story

A New York City donor a few cars back, who also would not give her name, said Romney needed to do a better job connecting. "I don't think the common person is getting it," she said from the passenger seat of a Range Rover stamped with East Hampton beach permits. "Nobody understands why Obama is hurting them.

"We've got the message," she added. "But my college kid, the baby sitters, the nails ladies -- everybody who's got the right to vote -- they don't understand what's going on. I just think if you're lower income -- one, you're not as educated, two, they don't understand how it works, they don't understand how the systems work, they don't understand the impact."

Oleg is a nails lady? I KNEW IT.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78402.html

Rush Limbaugh said Mitt Romney's speech Wednesday to the NAACP fell flat because it was "over these people's heads" and that the group booed the Republican candidate, who "sounded like Snow White with testicles," simply because he's white.

...

After playing a clip of the crowd booing Romney for criticizing the president's health care reform law, Limbaugh said the audience doesn't "know what's in it. They don't care what's in it. All they know is it's Obama's plan, and here comes Snow White with testicles in there ripping it to shreds, and so they're booing him." (Romney did receive a standing ovation at the end of the speech.)

"I would love to see somebody poll the conventioneers at the NAALCP and find out how many of them realize that they're not getting free health care under Obamacare," the conservative host continued. "That, in fact, they're gonna be fined for not buying health insurance. I wonder how many of them know." Limbaugh then cited "anecdotal" evidence from his "rich and powerful friends that owned and own businesses" that workers asked them after the Supreme Court decision if they would get free health care.

These lazy, free-loading blacks are so ignorant, they don't even know that Obama's not actually giving them Maobamacare Cadillacs!

[J. Walter Weatherman]

http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/quote/gov-romney-3/

By the way, I had the privelege of speaking today at the NAACP convention in Houston and I gave them the same speech I am giving you. I don't give different speeches to different audiences alright. I gave them the same speech. When I mentioned I am going to get rid of Obamacare they weren't happy, I didn't get the same response. That's ok, I want people to know what I stand for and if I don't stand for what they want, go vote for someone else, that's just fine. But I hope people understand this, your friends who like Obamacare, you remind them of this, if they want more stuff from government tell them to go vote for the other guy—more free stuff. But don't forget nothing is really free. it has to paid for by people in the private sector creating goods and services, and if people want jobs more than they want free stuff from government, then they are going to have to get government to be smaller. And if they don't want to repeal Obamacare they are going to have to give me some other stuff they are thinking about cutting, but my list takes Obamacare off first and I have a lot of other things I am thinking of cutting.

Now I'm confused... Is Maobamacare a bunch of free health-care Cadillacs for free-loaders or not?

[R-V]

Back to Romney's tax returns (and hopefully working in the tax profession has given me a sufficient base of financial knowledge to meet morph's standards) - I'm more interested in the valuation method he used for those Class A Bain shares when he contributed 2k a year's worth to his IRA in the 90s than I am in the mere existence of offshore accounts. I'm guessing most Americans haven't enjoyed $100 million of tax deferred earnings in their IRAs.