Real Hip-Hop

[Yeti]

Nelly

/thread

[InternetApex]

Nelly

/thread

Derp.

[ChuckD]

Great post. Some reactions:

1. I've always been a KRS-One guy. His contributions to the art form itself can't be ignored, nor can his stature as a philosopher and a live performer (this is a HUGE part of MC'ing, lest we forget). He steered the culture in the right direction against all odds during his reign at the top. I think there need to be more people who Stan for The Teacher, so I'm sticking with this for good or ill. "You can be a mack, a pimp, hustla or playa. Just make sure LIVE you are a dope rhyme-saya."

2. "All Eyez On Me" is fucking garbage. "Strictly 4 My..." is the second best Tupac album hands-down.

3. Big L is that MC that people like to talk about being the all-time great because it makes them sound cool. I love the guy's work but it's kind of a hipster thing to do. He died so you can't prove he wasn't that great. But is he really better than three other guys in his own DITC crew? Lord Finesse, O.C. and A.G. are criminally overlooked. He had potential and personality, sure, but shit. This is like calling Mark Prior the best pitcher ever in my opinion.

4. Eminem fell of musically, if not lyrically after his second album. I haven't bought or listened to shit since the 8-Mile Soundtrack.

5. Common does deserve a look as does Mos Def if we're going that route. Many people will argue for Andre 3000. And somehow Ice Cube never comes up, but he should.

1. Fair enough.

2. Disagree. I like Strictly but I'd put it a close 4th behind Makaveli. Not at all sure how you can say All Eyez on Me is garbage. I'm fine writing off most of the posthumous stuff, but All Eyez on Me is essential and I'd probably have worn out my copy by now (if I were still listening to a physical copy).

3. Maybe it's because I live in lily-white flyover country, but I never run across anyone who knows the guy. I guess I'm that Big L hipster, then. L has hands down the most lines that actually made me spit-take on first listen. Lifestylez doesn't have a weak track and most of it's gold. The Big Picture's a slight step down, but I don't think there's anything on it that you can write off. The guy had tons of absolutely genius lines.

4. He did fall off (I'm guessing you mean after MMLP, his third album?). I'll still give him Eminem Show but it's definitely on a different rung altogether from SSLP and MMLP. Some of that's because it wasn't as dark as the first two albums (it definitely foreshadowed the next decade of shit he pumped out), but there's enough meat on it for me.

5. Cube doesn't come up because of his film career. Not that it's a legit reason to dismiss what he did, but I can see why people forget how subversive and badass he was 20-25 years ago when all you see anymore is him playing the street-wise black suburban dad role.

[InternetApex]

Great post. Some reactions:

1. I've always been a KRS-One guy. His contributions to the art form itself can't be ignored, nor can his stature as a philosopher and a live performer (this is a HUGE part of MC'ing, lest we forget). He steered the culture in the right direction against all odds during his reign at the top. I think there need to be more people who Stan for The Teacher, so I'm sticking with this for good or ill. "You can be a mack, a pimp, hustla or playa. Just make sure LIVE you are a dope rhyme-saya."

2. "All Eyez On Me" is fucking garbage. "Strictly 4 My..." is the second best Tupac album hands-down.

3. Big L is that MC that people like to talk about being the all-time great because it makes them sound cool. I love the guy's work but it's kind of a hipster thing to do. He died so you can't prove he wasn't that great. But is he really better than three other guys in his own DITC crew? Lord Finesse, O.C. and A.G. are criminally overlooked. He had potential and personality, sure, but shit. This is like calling Mark Prior the best pitcher ever in my opinion.

4. Eminem fell of musically, if not lyrically after his second album. I haven't bought or listened to shit since the 8-Mile Soundtrack.

5. Common does deserve a look as does Mos Def if we're going that route. Many people will argue for Andre 3000. And somehow Ice Cube never comes up, but he should.

1. Fair enough.

2. Disagree. I like Strictly but I'd put it a close 4th behind Makaveli. Not at all sure how you can say All Eyez on Me is garbage. I'm fine writing off most of the posthumous stuff, but All Eyez on Me is essential and I'd probably have worn out my copy by now (if I were still listening to a physical copy).

3. Maybe it's because I live in lily-white flyover country, but I never run across anyone who knows the guy. I guess I'm that Big L hipster, then. L has hands down the most lines that actually made me spit-take on first listen. Lifestylez doesn't have a weak track and most of it's gold. The Big Picture's a slight step down, but I don't think there's anything on it that you can write off. The guy had tons of absolutely genius lines.

4. He did fall off (I'm guessing you mean after MMLP, his third album?). I'll still give him Eminem Show but it's definitely on a different rung altogether from SSLP and MMLP. Some of that's because it wasn't as dark as the first two albums (it definitely foreshadowed the next decade of shit he pumped out), but there's enough meat on it for me.

5. Cube doesn't come up because of his film career. Not that it's a legit reason to dismiss what he did, but I can see why people forget how subversive and badass he was 20-25 years ago when all you see anymore is him playing the street-wise black suburban dad role.

My problems with "All Eyez On Me" could be influenced by my staunch support for the East during the Coastal War of the mid-90s. Also, Death Row was in the process of alienating and losing Dre and Snoop due to its, let's say, unsound business practices and I could see that coming so I had even more reason to discredit it. Tupac, as the legend has it, would show up to the studio during the production of that album and record a handful of songs in one evening on one take and then leave. He did this for several weeks, which is why there is so much posthumous Tupac material around. The label took what they considered the best of that material and slopped it together on a double album. If Tupac, at the height of his powers then, had decided to focus on making a great record instead of whatever the fuck else/starting beef/getting killed, I would bet that "All Eyez On Me" would sound far different than it does. How any mature enthusiast of the genre can listen to that and not hear the lack of fucks given is beyond me. Musically, it's trash. Lyrically, it's brash and angry, but very repetitive and hardly original. Tupac's voice and presence, ever his saving graces, carry it to the point that people will call it something that I don't think it ever was.

Compare to "Life After Death" or "Wu-Tang Forever" and it lacks the depth lyrically, the punch musically, and the relevance currently.  

And after saying all that, I'll disclose that I believe had Tupac not died young that he would have become the greatest MC ever by such a margin that nobody would ever be able to eclipse his star. The Michael Jordan of this shit.

[InternetApex]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

[Saul Goodman]

Macklemore, guys.  Duh.  He thought he could draw, and that means you're gay.

Seriously though, I only listen to hip hop occasionally and wouldn't call myself an authority on ... anything, but the posts in this discussion made for some great reading.

[ChuckD]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

[InternetApex]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

I'm talking Ghost's solo stuff. I can't believe you don't fuck with it. Black Thought is fucking incredible.

Q-Tip and Posdnus don't get enough credit either, mostly, I think because they're in groups. I think Tip is the best all-around artist (M.C., Producer, D.J.) ever. There's a much shorter list of dudes in that conversation. And I think we might ought to transition because we're now at the part where we just start naming dope as fuck MCs until everybody gets bored and starts listening to Sam Cooke or something.

[Bort]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

Ghostface's appearance on Cuban Linx alone merits some sort of award.

[Bort]

DPD.

You can tell I'm super white because my favorite MC is Chuck D.*


*Not the desipiot.

[ChuckD]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

I'm talking Ghost's solo stuff. I can't believe you don't fuck with it. Black Thought is fucking incredible.

Q-Tip and Posdnus don't get enough credit either, mostly, I think because they're in groups. I think Tip is the best all-around artist (M.C., Producer, D.J.) ever. There's a much shorter list of dudes in that conversation. And I think we might ought to transition because we're now at the part where we just start naming dope as fuck MCs until everybody gets bored and starts listening to Sam Cooke or something.

I listened to Pretty Toney back when it first came out. I wanted to like it but found myself just skipping tracks and never went back. I went back for another album a few years later, maybe Ghostdini? Same story. I'll give him another shot. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood. What do you recommend of his stuff since Supreme Clientele?

[InternetApex]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

I'm talking Ghost's solo stuff. I can't believe you don't fuck with it. Black Thought is fucking incredible.

Q-Tip and Posdnus don't get enough credit either, mostly, I think because they're in groups. I think Tip is the best all-around artist (M.C., Producer, D.J.) ever. There's a much shorter list of dudes in that conversation. And I think we might ought to transition because we're now at the part where we just start naming dope as fuck MCs until everybody gets bored and starts listening to Sam Cooke or something.

I listened to Pretty Toney back when it first came out. I wanted to like it but found myself just skipping tracks and never went back. I went back for another album a few years later, maybe Ghostdini? Same story. I'll give him another shot. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood. What do you recommend of his stuff since Supreme Clientele?

Well, Bulletproof Wallets is very good. Fishscale is crazy.

And Apollo Kids????? Sweet Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8zqFmaQvZw&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEIKYCy7crE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cKR0LvFUYE

I don't listen to Pretty Tony much either.

[InternetApex]

DPD.

You can tell I'm super white because my favorite MC is Chuck D.*


*Not the desipiot.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

[ChuckD]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

I'm talking Ghost's solo stuff. I can't believe you don't fuck with it. Black Thought is fucking incredible.

Q-Tip and Posdnus don't get enough credit either, mostly, I think because they're in groups. I think Tip is the best all-around artist (M.C., Producer, D.J.) ever. There's a much shorter list of dudes in that conversation. And I think we might ought to transition because we're now at the part where we just start naming dope as fuck MCs until everybody gets bored and starts listening to Sam Cooke or something.

I listened to Pretty Toney back when it first came out. I wanted to like it but found myself just skipping tracks and never went back. I went back for another album a few years later, maybe Ghostdini? Same story. I'll give him another shot. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood. What do you recommend of his stuff since Supreme Clientele?

Well, Bulletproof Wallets is very good. Fishscale is crazy.

And Apollo Kids????? Sweet Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8zqFmaQvZw&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEIKYCy7crE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cKR0LvFUYE

I don't listen to Pretty Tony much either.

Holy shit, TIFL. Thanks for the heads up. I've got an all-nighter ahead of me and will be bumping some Tony Starks.

On a related note, I should mention that RapGenius has stepped it's fucking game up. I remember maybe a year or two ago that the only lyrics sites were sketchy in every respect (bad lyrics, YouTube quality comments, ad-infested, etc). I went to check out some of the lyrics for "In the Park" (which Ghostface and Black Thought absolutely murdered) and what do I find? Black Thought himself is on the site annotating his own verses. I just stanned in my boxer-briefs.

[ChuckD]

Also: Ghostface Killah says hi to both of us.

Ghostface's solo stuff fell off a pretty good deal, but if you're putting him up for what he did while in Wu Tang, sure.

Black Thought says 'sup, too.

Ghostface's appearance on Cuban Linx alone merits some sort of award.

He actually did win an award for his verse on Impossible off Wu-Tang Forever. It's around 2:40 in and will melt your balls off.

Per RapGenius:

A warning from the Clan about the increased crime rates. Most of the attention goes to the legendary Ghostface verse, which was hailed by RZA as "the greatest Wu-Tang verse ever written", and took home Verse of the Year in The Source.