2012 Chicago Cubs

[Slaky]

Chuck's Twitter post is wrong-headed in that it suggests Epstein will trade Castro for Adam Kennedy and a prospect if he makes another error.

That's a supposition that others have made and I can see how the limitations of the 140 characters could cause that.  To be clear, I would be pissed if they traded Castro for scraps.

But given how wretched this team is, how void the farm system is, how the clamor to get better quicker and the empty seats is going to lay on Tom, and Castro being at peak value right now, a trade is becoming more and more likely.  That, and Castro's below average defense and low walk rate suggest that Theo might undervalue him compared to the market.

But what I'm really not looking forward to is, should the move be made, the rending of garments and ubiquitous sound of Kaddish neing sung that will be heard from all corners of Cubdom.

We're at Peak Castro, folks.

Apparently Chuck is some sort of fucking futurereader.

No shit. He's barely 22 and is at peak value. Everyone think about this.

My god, Desipio just got interesting for the first time in a while.

[SKO]

Chuck's Twitter post is wrong-headed in that it suggests Epstein will trade Castro for Adam Kennedy and a prospect if he makes another error.

That's a supposition that others have made and I can see how the limitations of the 140 characters could cause that.  To be clear, I would be pissed if they traded Castro for scraps.

But given how wretched this team is, how void the farm system is, how the clamor to get better quicker and the empty seats is going to lay on Tom, and Castro being at peak value right now, a trade is becoming more and more likely.  That, and Castro's below average defense and low walk rate suggest that Theo might undervalue him compared to the market.

But what I'm really not looking forward to is, should the move be made, the rending of garments and ubiquitous sound of Kaddish neing sung that will be heard from all corners of Cubdom.

We're at Peak Castro, folks.

Apparently Chuck is some sort of fucking futurereader.

No shit. He's barely 22 and is at peak value. Everyone think about this.

My god, Desipio just got interesting for the first time in a while.

It's because, deep down, as infuriating as he is, this collective NEEDs Chuck. 10.17(c) is one of the foundational laws of our universe. Without it, what would unite us?

[Chuck to Chuck]

Who is clamoring for the Cubs to get better quicker?

A lot of idiots.

You act like something has changed over the last two weeks - that Ricketts and/or the fans have been given new information that has them re-evaluating their previous Cubs worldview.

The season started.

Is Ricketts surprised by the attendance at the first 6 games?

I don't know.  Ask him.

Are Cubs fans shocked that they're shitty?

Many are.

You act like there's this rising tide of...something...that no one can see coming except for you.

When did I say I was the only one who could see this coming?

[Internet Apex]

Let me go a bit further. Chuck's Twitter post is wrong-headed in that it suggests Epstein will trade Castro for Adam Kennedy and a prospect if he makes another error. But (Real Life) Chuck's premise isn't that far off.

1. I don't think Epstein has decided that he's got to build around Starlin Castro.
2. Epstein has generally managed a better shortstop and he traded him away, getting the immortal Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz for him.
3. Perhaps Epstein knew said better shortstop was done, and snookered a guy who was fueled by apple and cheese danishes. But... said better shortstop was healthy, coming off one of the best seasons of his career and his team was closer to the World Series than their runner-up counterpart from the other league. And Epstein had just about traded said better shortstop for a Venezuelan right fielder with a suspect knee.
4. Castro is a better than average hitter, and the best hitter on the Cubs. But defensively, he's been below average in range factor and fielding percentage each season.
5. Castro, as a good-hitting shortstop, might be overvalued on the trade market.
6. If Epstein traded Castro and replaced him with someone of the caliber of Orlando Cabrera (or worse), yet the Cubs still won the World Series, would you continue to bitch about it?

You think he raped that poor woman, don't you?

[Eli]

Who is clamoring for the Cubs to get better quicker?

A lot of idiots.

And if Epstein has proven one thing in his career, it's that he allows his on-field product to be shaped by the clamor of local idiots.

[Gilgamesh]

At a base level, I don't see why a team that believes it can realistically compete in two to three years would trade an asset worth as much as Castro is when he'd be 25 or 26 (and probably a better player at that point) for two to three players that may or may not be something.

If anything, with Baez coming up behind Castro, I can see Castro being moved to third rather than remain at short.  With Rizzo at first, all you'd need would be a second baseman to complete a young infield.

However, my frustration is predicated on this supposition that Chuck somehow knows something more than what we do with regards to Starlin's future with the team.  To be clear, none of this is predicated on anything you've heard, right Chuck?

[J. Walter Weatherman]

At a base level, I don't see why a team that believes it can realistically compete in two to three years would trade an asset worth as much as Castro is when he'd be 25 or 26 (and probably a better player at that point) for two to three players that may or may not be something.

Not if he peaked at age 21.

However, my frustration is predicated on this supposition that Chuck somehow knows something more than what we do with regards to Starlin's future with the team.  To be clear, none of this is predicated on anything you've heard, right Chuck?

Are you serious, Gil?

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

I hope Castro does become less bad-throwy...it'd be awesome if he was a great shortstop and not a really good-hitting second baseman.  I suspect his arm is fine and he just needs to mature mentally, but now would be a good time to start is all.  Thank you.

[Internet Apex]

At a base level In the abstract, I don't see why a team that believes it can realistically compete in two to three years would trade an asset worth as much as Castro is when he'd be 25 or 26 (and probably a better player at that point) for two to three players that may or may not be something.

Speak it.

[Brownie]

So the argument pits Chuck, on one side, suggesting a Castro trade to the Cardinals for Tyler Greene and cash should happen before the COB today, vs. everyone else, who would not listen to any offers involving Starlin Castro unless it was Longoria and Price or Upton and Verlander.

Chuck already conceded that his Twitter argument was poorly worded and wrong.

I will say it again. Who are the Cubs able to trade and get multiple everyday players that can help them years into the future? Garza, probably. Soto, maybe. Marmol, if he gets it together. Byrd? Dempster? Kerry Wood? Soriano? David DeJesus? Ian Stewart? Samardzija? Rodrigo Lopez? Brian The Hair? Anthony Rizzo? Josh Vitters? The thought that Castro would be part of a blockbuster deal sometime over the next 2 years isn't inane.

[Richard Chuggar]

At a base level, I don't see why a team that believes it can realistically compete in two to three years would trade an asset worth as much as Castro is when he'd be 25 or 26 (and probably a better player at that point) for two to three players that may or may not be something.

If anything, with Baez coming up behind Castro, I can see Castro being moved to third rather than remain at short.  With Rizzo at first, all you'd need would be a second baseman to complete a young infield.

However, my frustration is predicated on this supposition that Chuck somehow knows something more than what we do with regards to Starlin's future with the team.  To be clear, none of this is predicated on anything you've heard, right Chuck?

SKO also has a blog he'd like you to read

[Gilgamesh]

So the argument pits Chuck, on one side, suggesting a Castro trade to the Cardinals for Tyler Greene and cash should happen before the COB today, vs. everyone else, who would not listen to any offers involving Starlin Castro unless it was Longoria and Price or Upton and Verlander.

Chuck already conceded that his Twitter argument was poorly worded and wrong.

I will say it again. Who are the Cubs able to trade and get multiple everyday players that can help them years into the future? Garza, probably. Soto, maybe. Marmol, if he gets it together. Byrd? Dempster? Kerry Wood? Soriano? David DeJesus? Ian Stewart? Samardzija? Rodrigo Lopez? Brian The Hair? Anthony Rizzo? Josh Vitters? The thought that Castro would be part of a blockbuster deal sometime over the next 2 years isn't inane.

I just don't know why the team would trade someone who is 22 as if he is some 28 year old about to be free agent.  And LaHair, Snork, Garza, Wood, Dempster, Byrd, and Marmol...these are all the players that I don't expect to see on the Cubs after July 31.

However, to jettison Castro now seems silly.  If he can't improve his defense in two or three years, but his bat remains hot, then you can plug him at either third or the outfield to cover up his defensive liabilities.

In short, he's probably the only player on the Cubs that I wouldn't expect to see traded.

[Gilgamesh]

At a base level, I don't see why a team that believes it can realistically compete in two to three years would trade an asset worth as much as Castro is when he'd be 25 or 26 (and probably a better player at that point) for two to three players that may or may not be something.

Not if he peaked at age 21.

However, my frustration is predicated on this supposition that Chuck somehow knows something more than what we do with regards to Starlin's future with the team.  To be clear, none of this is predicated on anything you've heard, right Chuck?

Are you serious, Gil?

And yeah, I know...

[SKO]

So the argument pits Chuck, on one side, suggesting a Castro trade to the Cardinals for Tyler Greene and cash should happen before the COB today, vs. everyone else, who would not listen to any offers involving Starlin Castro unless it was Longoria and Price or Upton and Verlander.

Chuck already conceded that his Twitter argument was poorly worded and wrong.

I will say it again. Who are the Cubs able to trade and get multiple everyday players that can help them years into the future? Garza, probably. Soto, maybe. Marmol, if he gets it together. Byrd? Dempster? Kerry Wood? Soriano? David DeJesus? Ian Stewart? Samardzija? Rodrigo Lopez? Brian The Hair? Anthony Rizzo? Josh Vitters? The thought that Castro would be part of a blockbuster deal sometime over the next 2 years isn't inane.

I just don't know why the team would trade someone who is 22 as if he is some 28 year old about to be free agent.  And LaHair, Snork, Garza, Wood, Dempster, Byrd, and Marmol...these are all the players that I don't expect to see on the Cubs after July 31.

However, to jettison Castro now seems silly.  If he can't improve his defense in two or three years, but his bat remains hot, then you can plug him at either third or the outfield to cover up his defensive liabilities.

In short, he's probably the only player on the Cubs that I wouldn't expect to see traded.

I actually think TJ has a point, but it's the way Chuck says shit like "trade Starlin at his peak" that gets people's goats. I don't think anyone's saying the Cubs shouldn't listen if teams offer a deal for Starlin that could actually make the team better. I just don't think the rest of us believe there's going to be a package great enough to outweigh the benefits of a maturing Castro.

Basically, TJ's argument boils down to "they may as well listen to offers" and Chuck's comes off as "Rickets and Epstein are souring on Castro and would be open to moving him soon." That may not be what Chuck is trying to say, but he's Chuck.

[J. Walter Weatherman]

So the argument pits Chuck, on one side, suggesting a Castro trade to the Cardinals for Tyler Greene and cash should happen before the COB today, vs. everyone else, who would not listen to any offers involving Starlin Castro unless it was Longoria and Price or Upton and Verlander.

No. This argument merely pits Chuck against his sworn archenemy: ordinary fucking logic.

I don't think anyone here would be on principle against trading Castro for value. I think we're all mostly just opposed to Chuck making ridiculous bald assertions to the effect of such a trade "becoming more and more likely".

Because, you know, new shit has come to light or something. I guess.

New shit like Castro being at "peak value". And the 2012 season starting.