LOST: STAR WARS

[Chuck to Chuck]

Little Girl Murton has a countdown timer on her phone for 8:10 PM Thursday.

She's almost as excited as I am.

[Canadouche]

Seeing this tonight, VIP theater. I am very, very stoked.

[Chuck to Chuck]

High like factor, not to the love factor of IV or V, but a really good film.

[Bort]

I loved it.

[SKO]

I loved it.

As did I. Though much of it made me feel I was dying and thinking about the ending even now will still reduce me to nothing

[Bort]

I loved it.

As did I. Though much of it made me feel I was dying and thinking about the ending even now will still reduce me to nothing

I was legit stunned at the emotional heft of the last 45 minutes or so.

[Canadouche]

Maybe I need to watch it again. I enjoyed watching the movie, but I had a lot of problems with it.

[SKO]

Maybe I need to watch it again. I enjoyed watching the movie, but I had a lot of problems with it.

I think a lot of people will like it more on 2nd viewing. The vast majority of complaints I see are mostly "this is not what I expected"

[Chuck to Chuck]

I have a feeling it will be both better and worse on repeats.  I think the Luke/Kylo/Rey stuff will be better as, knowing where it goes, there could be nuances we didn't see on first viewing.

But I think the Poe/Laura Dern/Casino stuff will be worse.  I have no idea what point of Del Toro's character was. Lando betrayed them but got a redemptive moment.  Did we ever see Del Toro again after he admitted the double cross? And did we ever get a good reason why he did it (Lando did it because he needed to cover his business). I also don't know why they didn't give Leia the job of sacrificing herself to save the fleet and let Laura Dern's character do it. (Aside: They probably really did that to save the Rey/Leia story for Ep 9 with 7 being Rey/Han and 8 being Rey/Luke, but narratively, Dern's character was really unnecessary)

Lastly, they should have let Finn die in his attack on the ram ray.

[Canadouche]

I had a problem with some of the logic of the movie.

The example that immediately springs to mind: a fleet of Star Destroyers were chasing down a handful of rebel ships. Why not short-hop a couple of Star Destroyers to light speed to move them ahead of the rebels and put them in a crossfire? That entire chase was just weird. "While we're being hunted down by Star Destroyers, let's go to a casino at a conveniently nearby planet!"

I thought the whole mutiny thing with Poe was just totally pointless. Nothing was accomplished by it, as far as I can tell. Poe basically began the mutiny as a brash young pilot with a wild streak, and he ended the mutiny as a brash young pilot with a wild streak ... who was shot by Leia. There were no consequences of the mutiny, and the movie, which ran long, would've had a more appropriate runtime without it.

But I think my big issue is, they didn't know how to use Luke. I think they literally don't know how to write an all-powerful Jedi (hint: he doesn't have to be all-powerful). And the scene in which he stood over a young Ben and briefly flirted with the idea of striking him dead just seemed so unLuke to me. Luke Skywalker believed that the literal worst genocidal maniac in the history of the galaxy could be redeemed, and then he actually redeemed him. This would be like turning Hitler, or Dahmer, into a good guy you'd want around your kids, and Luke did it. But his sleeping nephew was "lost"? I just can't accept that. After I saw the movie, I read that Hamill also disagreed with basically every decision that was made about Luke, and I'm not surprised about that.

And Snoke was very disappointing. He was a mysterious, extremely powerful force user who spent the movie hanging out in his pyjamas until he was somehow dispatched by a character whose head Snoke bragged he was in at the time. Just ... disappointing. Once again, it leads me to think that they were deliberately dispatching with the "masters" of the Force because it's hard to write a suspenseful movie when there are invincible characters who can break anything.

Like I said - I'll watch it again. I've seen some reviews that put it in a better light than the way I was looking at it, and I'm going to give it another shot. But, yeah, disappointing.

[SKO]

The example that immediately springs to mind: a fleet of Star Destroyers were chasing down a handful of rebel ships. Why not short-hop a couple of Star Destroyers to light speed to move them ahead of the rebels and put them in a crossfire? That entire chase was just weird. "While we're being hunted down by Star Destroyers, let's go to a casino at a conveniently nearby planet!"

A) never overthink the science in star wars but
B) hyperspace in star wars does not work that way. it's not warp drive. you follow pre-set lanes and you can only stop at the next station, like a train, starting/stopping hyperdrive within the same gravity well causes extreme damage to the vessel, so basically they couldn't just jump ahead of a ship that wasn't going lightspeed and then stop. Also the craft that Finn/Rose took was just a small transport, as was clearly stated out loud in the movie the First Order was more concerned with taking out the fleet and getting the leadership than stopping a handful of deserters. Them going off to try and get someone who can help them break the First Order's pursuit is a perfectly logical thing.

I thought the whole mutiny thing with Poe was just totally pointless. Nothing was accomplished by it, as far as I can tell. Poe basically began the mutiny as a brash young pilot with a wild streak, and he ended the mutiny as a brash young pilot with a wild streak ... who was shot by Leia. There were no consequences of the mutiny, and the movie, which ran long, would've had a more appropriate runtime without it.

Did you miss the part at the end where Finn wanted to be a big hero and go charge out and help Luke fight the First Order, but Poe was the one that said "no, he's buying time for us to escape" and Leia made a big deal about everyone following him, almost like he had learned a lesson about not charging blindly and instead that the first role of a commander is to live to fight another day?

[SKO]

But I think my big issue is, they didn't know how to use Luke. I think they literally don't know how to write an all-powerful Jedi (hint: he doesn't have to be all-powerful). And the scene in which he stood over a young Ben and briefly flirted with the idea of striking him dead just seemed so unLuke to me. Luke Skywalker believed that the literal worst genocidal maniac in the history of the galaxy could be redeemed, and then he actually redeemed him. This would be like turning Hitler, or Dahmer, into a good guy you'd want around your kids, and Luke did it. But his sleeping nephew was "lost"? I just can't accept that. After I saw the movie, I read that Hamill also disagreed with basically every decision that was made about Luke, and I'm not surprised about that.

Luke had faith that his father could be redeemed, because he had felt Vader's hesitation to kill him on Bespin. He was a boy who wanted his father, it was less belief than hope, you can tell in a lot of his responses in Jedi that he's legitimately surprised/dismayed when Vader takes him captive, delivers him to Palpatine, fights him, etc. Plus, Luke ventured nothing more than himself in taking that gamble on Vader, which is why the one time he snaps is when he realizes Vader might go after Leia instead. He's more than willing to risk his own life, he's never willing to sacrifice Han or Leia and he will risk the dark side if he thinks it helps them.

Luke sees Ben as his failure as a teacher. He tried to stop the growing darkness within him but nothing seemed to be working, and then that night he saw a glimpse of the future, of Ben destroying everything, killing Han, everything he loved, and in a single moment of weakness he turned on his lightsaber before regretting it and trying to turn it off, unfortunately Ben woke up just then and there. In that way Luke made the same mistake Yoda and Obi-Wan made in thinking the Jedi could save themselves and the Republic by fighting in the Clone Wars when really the only way for them to win was to not fight. He loses his faith in the Jedi when he tries to save the light through violence rather than saving lives, and it's restored by Rey, and thus he gives his life to save the Resistance without actually killing anyone. It's very moving.

Luke not giving up on Vader was about having faith in his father's goodness, Luke fearing that he couldn't prevent Ben from falling to the darkness was about a lack of faith in himself, and frankly that tracks pretty well with his arc in the OT. He was never a very cocky, confident guy, he was just a dude trying to do the right thing and save his friends and family. Letting them down is and always has been his worst fear, and it came true. 

And Snoke was very disappointing. He was a mysterious, extremely powerful force user who spent the movie hanging out in his pyjamas until he was somehow dispatched by a character whose head Snoke bragged he was in at the time. Just ... disappointing. Once again, it leads me to think that they were deliberately dispatching with the "masters" of the Force because it's hard to write a suspenseful movie when there are invincible characters who can break anything.

I want you to go back to the first two movies of the OT and tell me what they tell you about Emperor Palpatine. They don't even say his name. They definitely don't explain his powers, they don't tell you anything about how he came to power and it doesn't matter, because that is not the story being told. Even ROTJ ends without the words Sith or Palpatine being said throughout the entire trilogy. He matters only in how he relates to Vader. Snoke is the same. He matters only as a plot device to move Kylo Ren's story. The way to differentiate Kylo Ren from Vader and make him something new and scary was to have him surpass Vader and just become the Emperor figure himself. He's no one's pawn nor is he a tragic figure. He's just embraced the darkness and he seeks to rule. It sets up a far more interesting story for IX.

[SKO]

in hindsight I shouldn't have given a breakdown of hyperspace when answering your first question and I should have just said that
traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

[Tony]

And Snoke was very disappointing. He was a mysterious, extremely powerful force user who spent the movie hanging out in his pyjamas until he was somehow dispatched by a character whose head Snoke bragged he was in at the time. Just ... disappointing. Once again, it leads me to think that they were deliberately dispatching with the "masters" of the Force because it's hard to write a suspenseful movie when there are invincible characters who can break anything.

I want you to go back to the first two movies of the OT and tell me what they tell you about Emperor Palpatine. They don't even say his name. They definitely don't explain his powers, they don't tell you anything about how he came to power and it doesn't matter, because that is not the story being told. Even ROTJ ends without the words Sith or Palpatine being said throughout the entire trilogy. He matters only in how he relates to Vader. Snoke is the same. He matters only as a plot device to move Kylo Ren's story. The way to differentiate Kylo Ren from Vader and make him something new and scary was to have him surpass Vader and just become the Emperor figure himself. He's no one's pawn nor is he a tragic figure. He's just embraced the darkness and he seeks to rule. It sets up a far more interesting story for IX.

Exactly. We didn't know shit about Sheev back then and it was awesome. For example, we didn't know he had a stupid first name like Sheev. I don't understand why so many people are obsessed with Snoke's backstory. Who is he really? Why wasn't he around during the Empire? Is he secretly a character that casual fans know nothing about? What's his favorite pizza topping? What was his locker combination in high school? He's just the bad guy. He was doing bad guy stuff somewhere else before, and now he's doing bad guy stuff with Kylo Ren. That's all we need.

[Tony]

But I think my big issue is, they didn't know how to use Luke. I think they literally don't know how to write an all-powerful Jedi (hint: he doesn't have to be all-powerful). And the scene in which he stood over a young Ben and briefly flirted with the idea of striking him dead just seemed so unLuke to me. Luke Skywalker believed that the literal worst genocidal maniac in the history of the galaxy could be redeemed, and then he actually redeemed him. This would be like turning Hitler, or Dahmer, into a good guy you'd want around your kids, and Luke did it. But his sleeping nephew was "lost"? I just can't accept that. After I saw the movie, I read that Hamill also disagreed with basically every decision that was made about Luke, and I'm not surprised about that.

Luke had faith that his father could be redeemed, because he had felt Vader's hesitation to kill him on Bespin. He was a boy who wanted his father, it was less belief than hope, you can tell in a lot of his responses in Jedi that he's legitimately surprised/dismayed when Vader takes him captive, delivers him to Palpatine, fights him, etc. Plus, Luke ventured nothing more than himself in taking that gamble on Vader, which is why the one time he snaps is when he realizes Vader might go after Leia instead. He's more than willing to risk his own life, he's never willing to sacrifice Han or Leia and he will risk the dark side if he thinks it helps them.

Luke sees Ben as his failure as a teacher. He tried to stop the growing darkness within him but nothing seemed to be working, and then that night he saw a glimpse of the future, of Ben destroying everything, killing Han, everything he loved, and in a single moment of weakness he turned on his lightsaber before regretting it and trying to turn it off, unfortunately Ben woke up just then and there. In that way Luke made the same mistake Yoda and Obi-Wan made in thinking the Jedi could save themselves and the Republic by fighting in the Clone Wars when really the only way for them to win was to not fight. He loses his faith in the Jedi when he tries to save the light through violence rather than saving lives, and it's restored by Rey, and thus he gives his life to save the Resistance without actually killing anyone. It's very moving.

Luke not giving up on Vader was about having faith in his father's goodness, Luke fearing that he couldn't prevent Ben from falling to the darkness was about a lack of faith in himself, and frankly that tracks pretty well with his arc in the OT. He was never a very cocky, confident guy, he was just a dude trying to do the right thing and save his friends and family. Letting them down is and always has been his worst fear, and it came true. 

Thank you for this... this is good stuff.