Javier Baez 2014 ROY-MVP-World Series MVP Thread

[Tonker]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

I AM ALSO WILL.  #ALLWILLSMATTER

[Yeti]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

[SKO]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

[Canadouche]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

[SKO]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

Zambrano was worth 4.5 wins a year from age 22-25. He averaged 215 IP in that time period, all of it under Dusty Baker. His emotions were not the problem. He averaged well over 110 pitches per start in that time period. He was already on the decline by age 26 because he was ridden into the fucking ground. The emotions just became a convenient excuse once he'd already lost his stuff and struggled.

[Slaky]

He needs a bad ass nickname.

[Quality Start Machine]

He needs a bad ass nickname.

MLB.com dropped "Kiss it good-Baez". No.

[PenFoe]

Get fucked, Chuck.

[Quality Start Machine]

Get fucked, Chuck.

[Yeti]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

Zambrano was worth 4.5 wins a year from age 22-25. He averaged 215 IP in that time period, all of it under Dusty Baker. His emotions were not the problem. He averaged well over 110 pitches per start in that time period. He was already on the decline by age 26 because he was ridden into the fucking ground. The emotions just became a convenient excuse once he'd already lost his stuff and struggled.

I know we like to bash Dusty for running pitchers in the ground, but what was he supposed to do with Carlos? He was not hurt, and made 129 starts over that time period. And I'm not sure where you're getting "Well over 110 pitches per start" stat. He pitched 109 pitches per outing. 14067 pitches over 129 outings. Adding in the 2003 playoffs makes it 14376 pitches in 132 starts: 108.84

Kershaw had 131 starts in his 22-25 year old seasons, 225 IP/season. He averaged 105 pitches in those 131 starts, and I don't think anyone is saying he got ran in to the ground. Adding in the playoffs, you're still at 105 pitches for 135 starts.

Bumgarner: 211 IP/season. 128 starts. 102.79 pitches per start. Adding in playoffs, you're at 138 starts with 102.10 pitches per outing (including the 5 inning save).

If your best pitcher is healthy, and gives you over 30 starts per year, I'm not sure what you're expecting. Comparing the pitches thrown, I guess you'd want to argue the 286 extra pitches over MadBum and the 235 extra pitches over Kershaw over that same period ruined Z. If you want to assume 250ish extra pitches killed him, then suit yourself, I guess.

[SKO]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

Zambrano was worth 4.5 wins a year from age 22-25. He averaged 215 IP in that time period, all of it under Dusty Baker. His emotions were not the problem. He averaged well over 110 pitches per start in that time period. He was already on the decline by age 26 because he was ridden into the fucking ground. The emotions just became a convenient excuse once he'd already lost his stuff and struggled.

I know we like to bash Dusty for running pitchers in the ground, but what was he supposed to do with Carlos? He was not hurt, and made 129 starts over that time period. And I'm not sure where you're getting "Well over 110 pitches per start" stat. He pitched 109 pitches per outing. 14067 pitches over 129 outings. Adding in the 2003 playoffs makes it 14376 pitches in 132 starts: 108.84

Kershaw had 131 starts in his 22-25 year old seasons, 225 IP/season. He averaged 105 pitches in those 131 starts, and I don't think anyone is saying he got ran in to the ground. Adding in the playoffs, you're still at 105 pitches for 135 starts.

Bumgarner: 211 IP/season. 128 starts. 102.79 pitches per start. Adding in playoffs, you're at 138 starts with 102.10 pitches per outing (including the 5 inning save).

If your best pitcher is healthy, and gives you over 30 starts per year, I'm not sure what you're expecting. Comparing the pitches thrown, I guess you'd want to argue the 286 extra pitches over MadBum and the 235 extra pitches over Kershaw over that same period ruined Z. If you want to assume 250ish extra pitches killed him, then suit yourself, I guess.

Fair point, but despite the shot I took at Dusty my main argument was that I think Carlos was just going to decline at that point regardless. Not everyone really can stand up to that kind of workload for that long, regardless of if they seem to be able to or not. He was never the same guy after 2006, the control got worse and nagging injuries started, and yeah, he responded to struggles in about the worst way possible, I just resent the inference that Carlos "could have been great if he'd gotten a handle on his emotions".

He was great, and then he wasn't. It's happened to hundreds of pitchers, most of whom weren't as hotheaded as Carlos.

A good example would be Lincecum. Great stuff, massive workload, wasn't really abused per se but then one day the stuff just disappeared despite no apparent injuries. Pitchers are good until they are not, Carlos' emotions be damned

[Canadouche]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

Zambrano was worth 4.5 wins a year from age 22-25. He averaged 215 IP in that time period, all of it under Dusty Baker. His emotions were not the problem. He averaged well over 110 pitches per start in that time period. He was already on the decline by age 26 because he was ridden into the fucking ground. The emotions just became a convenient excuse once he'd already lost his stuff and struggled.

I know we like to bash Dusty for running pitchers in the ground, but what was he supposed to do with Carlos? He was not hurt, and made 129 starts over that time period. And I'm not sure where you're getting "Well over 110 pitches per start" stat. He pitched 109 pitches per outing. 14067 pitches over 129 outings. Adding in the 2003 playoffs makes it 14376 pitches in 132 starts: 108.84

Kershaw had 131 starts in his 22-25 year old seasons, 225 IP/season. He averaged 105 pitches in those 131 starts, and I don't think anyone is saying he got ran in to the ground. Adding in the playoffs, you're still at 105 pitches for 135 starts.

Bumgarner: 211 IP/season. 128 starts. 102.79 pitches per start. Adding in playoffs, you're at 138 starts with 102.10 pitches per outing (including the 5 inning save).

If your best pitcher is healthy, and gives you over 30 starts per year, I'm not sure what you're expecting. Comparing the pitches thrown, I guess you'd want to argue the 286 extra pitches over MadBum and the 235 extra pitches over Kershaw over that same period ruined Z. If you want to assume 250ish extra pitches killed him, then suit yourself, I guess.

Fair point, but despite the shot I took at Dusty my main argument was that I think Carlos was just going to decline at that point regardless. Not everyone really can stand up to that kind of workload for that long, regardless of if they seem to be able to or not. He was never the same guy after 2006, the control got worse and nagging injuries started, and yeah, he responded to struggles in about the worst way possible, I just resent the inference that Carlos "could have been great if he'd gotten a handle on his emotions".

He was great, and then he wasn't. It's happened to hundreds of pitchers, most of whom weren't as hotheaded as Carlos.

A good example would be Lincecum. Great stuff, massive workload, wasn't really abused per se but then one day the stuff just disappeared despite no apparent injuries. Pitchers are good until they are not, Carlos' emotions be damned

I stand by my opinion, and I say that as someone who was about as big a Zambrano fan as possible. I mean, the guy inspired both of my good photoshops.

[Shooter]

He needs a bad ass nickname.

MLB.com dropped "Kiss it good-Baez". No.

I don't think that was intended as a nickname. It seemed like a headline for the game story.

[Yeti]

Difference is that Baez doesn't seem to be the emo, hot-headed powderkeg and is will to play anywhere to help out.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Z would have been fine with being an 4/5ths position player and 1/5ths starter.

I also remember him being surprisingly cool about being moved to the bullpen and back a couple of times in 2010.

I really liked Carlos. He would've been amazing, if he'd ever gotten control of his emotions.

Zambrano was worth 4.5 wins a year from age 22-25. He averaged 215 IP in that time period, all of it under Dusty Baker. His emotions were not the problem. He averaged well over 110 pitches per start in that time period. He was already on the decline by age 26 because he was ridden into the fucking ground. The emotions just became a convenient excuse once he'd already lost his stuff and struggled.

I know we like to bash Dusty for running pitchers in the ground, but what was he supposed to do with Carlos? He was not hurt, and made 129 starts over that time period. And I'm not sure where you're getting "Well over 110 pitches per start" stat. He pitched 109 pitches per outing. 14067 pitches over 129 outings. Adding in the 2003 playoffs makes it 14376 pitches in 132 starts: 108.84

Kershaw had 131 starts in his 22-25 year old seasons, 225 IP/season. He averaged 105 pitches in those 131 starts, and I don't think anyone is saying he got ran in to the ground. Adding in the playoffs, you're still at 105 pitches for 135 starts.

Bumgarner: 211 IP/season. 128 starts. 102.79 pitches per start. Adding in playoffs, you're at 138 starts with 102.10 pitches per outing (including the 5 inning save).

If your best pitcher is healthy, and gives you over 30 starts per year, I'm not sure what you're expecting. Comparing the pitches thrown, I guess you'd want to argue the 286 extra pitches over MadBum and the 235 extra pitches over Kershaw over that same period ruined Z. If you want to assume 250ish extra pitches killed him, then suit yourself, I guess.

Fair point, but despite the shot I took at Dusty my main argument was that I think Carlos was just going to decline at that point regardless. Not everyone really can stand up to that kind of workload for that long, regardless of if they seem to be able to or not. He was never the same guy after 2006, the control got worse and nagging injuries started, and yeah, he responded to struggles in about the worst way possible, I just resent the inference that Carlos "could have been great if he'd gotten a handle on his emotions".

He was great, and then he wasn't. It's happened to hundreds of pitchers, most of whom weren't as hotheaded as Carlos.

A good example would be Lincecum. Great stuff, massive workload, wasn't really abused per se but then one day the stuff just disappeared despite no apparent injuries. Pitchers are good until they are not, Carlos' emotions be damned

I think Carlos was more than his emotions. I remember talk that his overall nutrition was shit. I have no room to talk, but I'm not an athlete making millions off my body. I suspect Carlos was stubborn, dumb and a little crazy. That attitude made him endearing to us while he was good, but if he didn't take care of himself, then it would make sense that his career nose-dived like it did. He had an ERA+ of 127 in 2010 and pitched his last game in 2012.

[Tonker]

If Javy can just hit league avg/oba/slg/ops he's gotta stay because his defense is fucking amazing. I know we've had a few great defenders, but this guy is ridiculous.

OPS+ is up to 99.  Is that league average enough?