Joe Maddon: The Man Behind the Glasses

[InternetApex]

What the fuck was that 8th inning, Joe

It was so bad there had to be an ulterior motive. There's no way Joe thought that sequence of events best set them up to score runs. He had a quote after the game about wanting to get guys in the game because "everyone on this team has a role." Maybe he's trying to send a message to the front office to get him a better bench.

Then again, it's not like this is the first time he's done this.

But seriously, stop yanking your good hitters in close games for pinch runners. And stop letting David Ross hit ever.

INTREPID READER SAHEDEV SHARMA:
Woah, Eli. I've talked to several equipment managers about this, and they all say David Ross has a value in the clubhouse you could never fathom. It's real. I see it.

Wrong thread, but I want to read an actual in-depth analysis of him that goes beyond 140 characters. I'm open to learning. But so far I've been completely unconvinced by people who think he has a place on this team.

Someone on Twitter yesterday told me that the difference between the best and worst framer in the league was 40 runs over a full season. The problem is that assumes 1.) Ross it the best framer in the league 2.) the Cubs would replace him with the worst framer in the league. Even if you accepted those two generous conclusions, Ross's bat over a full season would probably approach -40 run territory, so ... what's his value again? Not to mention the opportunity cost of using a roster spot on a guy who can't hit.

The Ross thing is quite simple, really. It's such an obviously stupid thing to do that people cannot believe a bunch of obviously smart people are doing it, so whatever bullshit explanation they provide for it has to be true.

Hell, look how Maddon and Len Kasper won't even admit Ross is Lester's personal catcher, because they can't speak to the obvious truth of why he's on the roster. I'd rather they just come out and say he's there because Lester wants him there rather than have my faith in the front office slowly undermined by people telling me over and over again how much they value terrible baseball players who are good "clubhouse guys." That's cro-magnon thinking from people who should be above it.

I'd rather they not do that because then the pressure is put on Lester to explain it. And his job is to throw baseballs hard, not talk to tools with notebooks about stuff. There are people responsible for doing that and whether they do it well or not doesn't interest me as much as it does, say, Skip Bayless.

[InternetApex]

Something something let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  Managers don't bat 1.000.   Who knows what this wack job was thinking last night?  He does weird shit, either for effect or because he really believes it.  Frankly I don't care how he goes about it or how he explains it.  On balance,  the results have been good when you consider that he even has  guys like Baxter and Ross at his "disposal" (in addition to Mack Seizure, Hoon-Your Lago, Herrera etc.).

Further, they (and we) weren't planning on Coghlan sucking eggs the first 6 weeks, and they had also hoped Denorfia would be Coghlans' platoon partner, but the latter was injured for the same time period, much like Tommy LaStrella, who's been injured or dead all year, and even LaStella's presence was to have augmented the development of Alcantara, who shit the tub and got sent back.  

Also their #4 starter was the pitching equivalent of Coghlan the first 6 weeks, and #5 remains a goddamn mystery brew.  The bullpen has also been wracked with injuries (Ramirez seems like a big one), and their closer has been unsteady of late.

Oh, and Soler didn't produce like we hoped early on, and when it seemed like he started to warm up, he got hurt.

And yet in spite of all that, and in spite of their manager seemingly kicking one away by diluting his talent in the late innings of a game they eventually lost, they have the 7th best record in baseball.  Last night was frustrating, but they'll be plenty more nights like that because baseball.  I mean, I hate David Ross too--and I'm not lending any credence to what Sahadev suggested either-- but you getting upset about how he discusses the situation with the lead play-by-play man is a bit much.

So I'd tell you top maybe try stop losing your shit when the Cubs lose a game, but nothing seems to make you lose your shit more than when someone suggests you stop losing it, so I'ma just gonna gently suggest you maybe see how this plays out.  

Jesus, I'm not losing my shit at a Cubs loss. The loss was fine, it happens. I'm criticizing specific moves Joe Maddon made, which should be allowed. I like the guy too, he's not infallible.

As for the Ross thing, I wasn't even commenting on what Maddon told Kasper. I was saying Maddon AND Kasper are just two guys who have been asked about Ross being Lester's personal catcher and have denied the obvious.

I'm not freaking out about anything at all, but I'm really sick of having to be talked off a ledge I'm not even on because I'm bitching about fucking David Ross.

I mean if anyone can find any evidence whatsoever of me actually saying the Cubs are DOOMED or something, fine, but if you want to single me out for being one of 5 million people bitching about David Ross and Joe's weird 8th inning stroke last night like I'm some common Fro Dog, bugger off. Hell I spent last night after the loss talking with Sahedev and others on twitter about why there are so many reasons for optimism with this team and why guys like that Jeff Aronson dude who write the Cubs off whenever they're down 2 runs early in a game are fucking irritating.

*sips coffee*

(||)

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Something something let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  Managers don't bat 1.000.   Who knows what this wack job was thinking last night?  He does weird shit, either for effect or because he really believes it.  Frankly I don't care how he goes about it or how he explains it.  On balance,  the results have been good when you consider that he even has  guys like Baxter and Ross at his "disposal" (in addition to Mack Seizure, Hoon-Your Lago, Herrera etc.).

Further, they (and we) weren't planning on Coghlan sucking eggs the first 6 weeks, and they had also hoped Denorfia would be Coghlans' platoon partner, but the latter was injured for the same time period, much like Tommy LaStrella, who's been injured or dead all year, and even LaStella's presence was to have augmented the development of Alcantara, who shit the tub and got sent back.  

Also their #4 starter was the pitching equivalent of Coghlan the first 6 weeks, and #5 remains a goddamn mystery brew.  The bullpen has also been wracked with injuries (Ramirez seems like a big one), and their closer has been unsteady of late.

Oh, and Soler didn't produce like we hoped early on, and when it seemed like he started to warm up, he got hurt.

And yet in spite of all that, and in spite of their manager seemingly kicking one away by diluting his talent in the late innings of a game they eventually lost, they have the 7th best record in baseball.  Last night was frustrating, but they'll be plenty more nights like that because baseball.  I mean, I hate David Ross too--and I'm not lending any credence to what Sahadev suggested either-- but you getting upset about how he discusses the situation with the lead play-by-play man is a bit much.

So I'd tell you top maybe try stop losing your shit when the Cubs lose a game, but nothing seems to make you lose your shit more than when someone suggests you stop losing it, so I'ma just gonna gently suggest you maybe see how this plays out.  

Jesus, I'm not losing my shit at a Cubs loss. The loss was fine, it happens. I'm criticizing specific moves Joe Maddon made, which should be allowed. I like the guy too, he's not infallible.

As for the Ross thing, I wasn't even commenting on what Maddon told Kasper. I was saying Maddon AND Kasper are just two guys who have been asked about Ross being Lester's personal catcher and have denied the obvious.

I'm not freaking out about anything at all, but I'm really sick of having to be talked off a ledge I'm not even on because I'm bitching about fucking David Ross.

I mean if anyone can find any evidence whatsoever of me actually saying the Cubs are DOOMED or something, fine, but if you want to single me out for being one of 5 million people bitching about David Ross and Joe's weird 8th inning stroke last night like I'm some common Fro Dog, bugger off. Hell I spent last night after the loss talking with Sahedev and others on twitter about why there are so many reasons for optimism with this team and why guys like that Jeff Aronson dude who write the Cubs off whenever they're down 2 runs early in a game are fucking irritating.

I don't follow 5 million people.

I do follow you though, and your tweets always stand out in my timeline as strikingly petulant--not just a one-time-get-it-off-my-chest vent but a stream of ANGERRAGE tweets.

Maybe I should follow Tommy Cooks again so you don't stand out.  He announced to everyone, back in early May after a tough Cardinals loss, that people who didn't agree with him that that one particular early-season come-from-ahead loss was a BIG GAME were "idiots" and should stop following him so I obliged.  I could always re-follow him so that, in combination with yourself, receive a rich and luxurious tapestry of Twitter bed-wetting after every close or tough loss.

[Slaky]

Something something let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  Managers don't bat 1.000.   Who knows what this wack job was thinking last night?  He does weird shit, either for effect or because he really believes it.  Frankly I don't care how he goes about it or how he explains it.  On balance,  the results have been good when you consider that he even has  guys like Baxter and Ross at his "disposal" (in addition to Mack Seizure, Hoon-Your Lago, Herrera etc.).

Further, they (and we) weren't planning on Coghlan sucking eggs the first 6 weeks, and they had also hoped Denorfia would be Coghlans' platoon partner, but the latter was injured for the same time period, much like Tommy LaStrella, who's been injured or dead all year, and even LaStella's presence was to have augmented the development of Alcantara, who shit the tub and got sent back.  

Also their #4 starter was the pitching equivalent of Coghlan the first 6 weeks, and #5 remains a goddamn mystery brew.  The bullpen has also been wracked with injuries (Ramirez seems like a big one), and their closer has been unsteady of late.

Oh, and Soler didn't produce like we hoped early on, and when it seemed like he started to warm up, he got hurt.

And yet in spite of all that, and in spite of their manager seemingly kicking one away by diluting his talent in the late innings of a game they eventually lost, they have the 7th best record in baseball.  Last night was frustrating, but they'll be plenty more nights like that because baseball.  I mean, I hate David Ross too--and I'm not lending any credence to what Sahadev suggested either-- but you getting upset about how he discusses the situation with the lead play-by-play man is a bit much.

So I'd tell you top maybe try stop losing your shit when the Cubs lose a game, but nothing seems to make you lose your shit more than when someone suggests you stop losing it, so I'ma just gonna gently suggest you maybe see how this plays out.  

Jesus, I'm not losing my shit at a Cubs loss. The loss was fine, it happens. I'm criticizing specific moves Joe Maddon made, which should be allowed. I like the guy too, he's not infallible.

As for the Ross thing, I wasn't even commenting on what Maddon told Kasper. I was saying Maddon AND Kasper are just two guys who have been asked about Ross being Lester's personal catcher and have denied the obvious.

I'm not freaking out about anything at all, but I'm really sick of having to be talked off a ledge I'm not even on because I'm bitching about fucking David Ross.

I mean if anyone can find any evidence whatsoever of me actually saying the Cubs are DOOMED or something, fine, but if you want to single me out for being one of 5 million people bitching about David Ross and Joe's weird 8th inning stroke last night like I'm some common Fro Dog, bugger off. Hell I spent last night after the loss talking with Sahedev and others on twitter about why there are so many reasons for optimism with this team and why guys like that Jeff Aronson dude who write the Cubs off whenever they're down 2 runs early in a game are fucking irritating.

*sips coffee*

(||)

Bitching about David Ross is the worst.

[InternetApex]

Something something let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  Managers don't bat 1.000.   Who knows what this wack job was thinking last night?  He does weird shit, either for effect or because he really believes it.  Frankly I don't care how he goes about it or how he explains it.  On balance,  the results have been good when you consider that he even has  guys like Baxter and Ross at his "disposal" (in addition to Mack Seizure, Hoon-Your Lago, Herrera etc.).

Further, they (and we) weren't planning on Coghlan sucking eggs the first 6 weeks, and they had also hoped Denorfia would be Coghlans' platoon partner, but the latter was injured for the same time period, much like Tommy LaStrella, who's been injured or dead all year, and even LaStella's presence was to have augmented the development of Alcantara, who shit the tub and got sent back.  

Also their #4 starter was the pitching equivalent of Coghlan the first 6 weeks, and #5 remains a goddamn mystery brew.  The bullpen has also been wracked with injuries (Ramirez seems like a big one), and their closer has been unsteady of late.

Oh, and Soler didn't produce like we hoped early on, and when it seemed like he started to warm up, he got hurt.

And yet in spite of all that, and in spite of their manager seemingly kicking one away by diluting his talent in the late innings of a game they eventually lost, they have the 7th best record in baseball.  Last night was frustrating, but they'll be plenty more nights like that because baseball.  I mean, I hate David Ross too--and I'm not lending any credence to what Sahadev suggested either-- but you getting upset about how he discusses the situation with the lead play-by-play man is a bit much.

So I'd tell you top maybe try stop losing your shit when the Cubs lose a game, but nothing seems to make you lose your shit more than when someone suggests you stop losing it, so I'ma just gonna gently suggest you maybe see how this plays out.  

Jesus, I'm not losing my shit at a Cubs loss. The loss was fine, it happens. I'm criticizing specific moves Joe Maddon made, which should be allowed. I like the guy too, he's not infallible.

As for the Ross thing, I wasn't even commenting on what Maddon told Kasper. I was saying Maddon AND Kasper are just two guys who have been asked about Ross being Lester's personal catcher and have denied the obvious.

I'm not freaking out about anything at all, but I'm really sick of having to be talked off a ledge I'm not even on because I'm bitching about fucking David Ross.

I mean if anyone can find any evidence whatsoever of me actually saying the Cubs are DOOMED or something, fine, but if you want to single me out for being one of 5 million people bitching about David Ross and Joe's weird 8th inning stroke last night like I'm some common Fro Dog, bugger off. Hell I spent last night after the loss talking with Sahedev and others on twitter about why there are so many reasons for optimism with this team and why guys like that Jeff Aronson dude who write the Cubs off whenever they're down 2 runs early in a game are fucking irritating.

*sips coffee*

(||)

Bitching about David Ross is the worst.

No, bitching about fucking him is the worst. Ungrateful shits. At least you're fucking David Ross.

[SKO]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

[Slaky]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

I'm also counting 300 posts on this message board.

[SKO]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

I'm also counting 300 posts on this message board.

I mean, fine, but I feel like even the "whatever David Ross is just Lester's binkie he plays once a week stop devoting so many words to him" crowd should agree it's fair to bitch when Joe replaces a functional major league hitter with him in the 8th inning in a crucial spot. But whatever. I've obviously taken on too much water to say anything negative about this year's Cubs (even when I'm not bitching about the Cubs, so much as one particular Cub and the mis-use of him),  without the response being "TL; DR: SKO is off his rocker again", so I'll stop.

[Slaky]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

I'm also counting 300 posts on this message board.

I mean, fine, but I feel like even the "whatever David Ross is just Lester's binkie he plays once a week stop devoting so many words to him" crowd should agree it's fair to bitch when Joe replaces a functional major league hitter with him in the 8th inning in a crucial spot. But whatever. I've obviously taken on too much water to say anything negative about this year's Cubs without the response being "TL; DR: SKO is off his rocker again", so I'll stop.

It's worth nothing because Eli and many others have rightfully proven that Ross' value is in mascot and whatever pitch framing he might do only - but it's not just "he's Lester's binkie". Apparently he's VERY popular in the clubhouse and has been a large part of instilling a culture that Maddon and the front office want these players to be a part of. Rizzo is very, very bought in on a personal level - and that's from people who know both of them personally. My source on that is Jason Katz, a nice person on Twitter, who for some reason tells me stuff and worked for MLB media for like 10 years.

It may not matter at all because we have the numbers to prove he is hurting the team and I get that. It would be GREAT if Ross could get DFA'd and hired as a coach today. But that's not going to happen just right now. If Ross' presence gives the actual leaders on this team some of the skills that come with leadership and all the other intangible bullshit that people who love numbers love to hate, that's still pretty good. And if it means the Cubs don't win the world series this year but win it next year and the next 10 after that, that's fine too.

Schwarber's going to force them to make a decision sooner than later. Hopefully he tears the PCL a fourth asshole. And the Pirates won't win every single game from here on out.

[SKO]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

I'm also counting 300 posts on this message board.

I mean, fine, but I feel like even the "whatever David Ross is just Lester's binkie he plays once a week stop devoting so many words to him" crowd should agree it's fair to bitch when Joe replaces a functional major league hitter with him in the 8th inning in a crucial spot. But whatever. I've obviously taken on too much water to say anything negative about this year's Cubs without the response being "TL; DR: SKO is off his rocker again", so I'll stop.

It's worth nothing because Eli and many others have rightfully proven that Ross' value is in mascot and whatever pitch framing he might do only - but it's not just "he's Lester's binkie". Apparently he's VERY popular in the clubhouse and has been a large part of instilling a culture that Maddon and the front office want these players to be a part of. Rizzo is very, very bought in on a personal level - and that's from people who know both of them personally. My source on that is Jason Katz, a nice person on Twitter, who for some reason tells me stuff and worked for MLB media for like 10 years.

It may not matter at all because we have the numbers to prove he is hurting the team and I get that. It would be GREAT if Ross could get DFA'd and hired as a coach today. But that's not going to happen just right now. If Ross' presence gives the actual leaders on this team some of the skills that come with leadership and all the other intangible bullshit that people who love numbers love to hate, that's still pretty good. And if it means the Cubs don't win the world series this year but win it next year and the next 10 after that, that's fine too.

Schwarber's going to force them to make a decision sooner than later. Hopefully he tears the PCL a fourth asshole. And the Pirates won't win every single game from here on out.

Again, feel I should clarify here: I'm not worried about these Cubs in the slightest, Ross or no Ross. I don't think they've ever fallen more than a game or so out of the wildcard and they've held onto one of those spots for seemingly 80% of the season. Every site loves their chances to make the playoffs and so do I. The kids are only going to get better.


That said, David Ross is an obvious weakness I'd like addressed and it feels weird that this community in particular (one that nearly rioted when the Cubs threatened to keep Kevin Millar over Chad Tracy one spring training) is just cool with being told "eh he's great in the clubhouse" or whatever, and it's weird that intangible bullshit we'd regard as being awful nonsense if it were the BFIBB talking about some scrappy 37 year old white dude is fine when it comes from guys we want to like. It's still nonsense. But yeah, in the long run it's not hurting them that much, I just would prefer it not be hurting them at all.

And hell, I'd come to stop bitching about Ross in his actual role as backup catcher because, fine, whatever, those guys barely ever hit anyway, but then Joe felt the need to bring in a guy with a .497 OPS vs lefties as a pinch hitter solely because he's right handed and the pitcher was left handed and man that was disappointingly simplistic and wrong thinking from a manager who is smarter than that.

[Slaky]

Three tweets about how pinch hitting David Ross is stupid last night. Three. That's strikingly petulant according to the man who has waged a ten year war against Ryan Dempster for one blown save and a bad Harry Caray impersonation.

I'm also counting 300 posts on this message board.

I mean, fine, but I feel like even the "whatever David Ross is just Lester's binkie he plays once a week stop devoting so many words to him" crowd should agree it's fair to bitch when Joe replaces a functional major league hitter with him in the 8th inning in a crucial spot. But whatever. I've obviously taken on too much water to say anything negative about this year's Cubs without the response being "TL; DR: SKO is off his rocker again", so I'll stop.

It's worth nothing because Eli and many others have rightfully proven that Ross' value is in mascot and whatever pitch framing he might do only - but it's not just "he's Lester's binkie". Apparently he's VERY popular in the clubhouse and has been a large part of instilling a culture that Maddon and the front office want these players to be a part of. Rizzo is very, very bought in on a personal level - and that's from people who know both of them personally. My source on that is Jason Katz, a nice person on Twitter, who for some reason tells me stuff and worked for MLB media for like 10 years.

It may not matter at all because we have the numbers to prove he is hurting the team and I get that. It would be GREAT if Ross could get DFA'd and hired as a coach today. But that's not going to happen just right now. If Ross' presence gives the actual leaders on this team some of the skills that come with leadership and all the other intangible bullshit that people who love numbers love to hate, that's still pretty good. And if it means the Cubs don't win the world series this year but win it next year and the next 10 after that, that's fine too.

Schwarber's going to force them to make a decision sooner than later. Hopefully he tears the PCL a fourth asshole. And the Pirates won't win every single game from here on out.

Again, feel I should clarify here: I'm not worried about these Cubs in the slightest, Ross or no Ross. I don't think they've ever fallen more than a game or so out of the wildcard and they've held onto one of those spots for seemingly 80% of the season. Every site loves their chances to make the playoffs and so do I. The kids are only going to get better.


That said, David Ross is an obvious weakness I'd like addressed and it feels weird that this community in particular (one that nearly rioted when the Cubs threatened to keep Kevin Millar over Chad Tracy one spring training) is just cool with being told "eh he's great in the clubhouse" or whatever, and it's weird that intangible bullshit we'd regard as being awful nonsense if it were the BFIBB talking about some scrappy 37 year old white dude is fine when it comes from guys we want to like. It's still nonsense. But yeah, in the long run it's not hurting them that much, I just would prefer it not be hurting them at all.

It is - and I won't cry a single tear when he leaves. But I'm also trying to see it from the point of view where there are really smart baseball people who seem to advocate keeping him. Obviously there are reasons.

[SKO]

And for what it's worth pinch hitting Baxter for Denorfia was even worse. At least Coghlan has been shit vs left handers so I get wanting to not let him face a lefty. Denorfia is hitting .395 with a .978 OPS in 38 PAs vs RHP so far this year and Mike Baxter is Mike Baxter.

It was bizarre. I like Joe a lot and the culture he's creating is very good and important and with this team that's arguably his far more important role, but I'm just legitimately surprised he's been so weirdly stubborn and antiquated with his thinking about righty/lefty matchups all year.

[Eli]

The biggest thing that bugs me about Ross is the two-year contract. If there's "no room" for Schwarber this year because they have Ross and Montero, that'll also apply next year.

[SKO]

The biggest thing that bugs me about Ross is the two-year contract. If there's "no room" for Schwarber this year because they have Ross and Montero, that'll also apply next year.

Well it's for 2.5 million next year. I'm willing to bet they can eat that if they are smart enough to realize Schwarber doesn't belong in the minors next year, and I think they are. But now I've responded you to turning this conversation back into one about Ross and people will choose to yell at me again.

[Slaky]

The biggest thing that bugs me about Ross is the two-year contract. If there's "no room" for Schwarber this year because they have Ross and Montero, that'll also apply next year.

Yeah well if he's this bad all year they won't carry him again. There's no way. I'm not even that pessimistic.