Joe Maddon: The Man Behind the Glasses

[Quality Start Machine]

It's possible to appreciate everything Joe did to help them get there while also acknowledging his in-game decisions during the World Series made their task more difficult. I still like him but some of those moves were just objectively bad whether they eventually won or not. He's smart, he'll adjust.

Yeah nuance is possible. I agree with Andy and Fork that this team doesn't come back from 3-1 and doesn't keep it together after the Chapman dinger without the way Joe has managed the attitudes and atmosphere of the clubhouse for two years. He also made some terrible decisions that would have haunted all of us forever if they'd lost. On the other hand I think Joe would have been saved from overthinking everything if random chance hadn't injured Rondon and Strop right before the goddamn playoffs. If he'd had more relievers he could trust it all plays out differently. Anyway, none of that shit ended up mattering, and today's not the day to rehash it. I . Go Cubs. Go Joe.

He's a great manager. Not a perfect one.

[Canadouche]

It's possible to appreciate everything Joe did to help them get there while also acknowledging his in-game decisions during the World Series made their task more difficult. I still like him but some of those moves were just objectively bad whether they eventually won or not. He's smart, he'll adjust.

Yeah nuance is possible. I agree with Andy and Fork that this team doesn't come back from 3-1 and doesn't keep it together after the Chapman dinger without the way Joe has managed the attitudes and atmosphere of the clubhouse for two years. He also made some terrible decisions that would have haunted all of us forever if they'd lost. On the other hand I think Joe would have been saved from overthinking everything if random chance hadn't injured Rondon and Strop right before the goddamn playoffs. If he'd had more relievers he could trust it all plays out differently. Anyway, none of that shit ended up mattering, and today's not the day to rehash it. I . Go Cubs. Go Joe.

He's a great manager. Not a perfect one.

The crazy thing is that almost all of his bullshit decisions actually worked out. You'd think that, law of averages and all, some of them would've ended with very different results.

[CBStew]

It's possible to appreciate everything Joe did to help them get there while also acknowledging his in-game decisions during the World Series made their task more difficult. I still like him but some of those moves were just objectively bad whether they eventually won or not. He's smart, he'll adjust.

Yeah nuance is possible. I agree with Andy and Fork that this team doesn't come back from 3-1 and doesn't keep it together after the Chapman dinger without the way Joe has managed the attitudes and atmosphere of the clubhouse for two years. He also made some terrible decisions that would have haunted all of us forever if they'd lost. On the other hand I think Joe would have been saved from overthinking everything if random chance hadn't injured Rondon and Strop right before the goddamn playoffs. If he'd had more relievers he could trust it all plays out differently. Anyway, none of that shit ended up mattering, and today's not the day to rehash it. I . Go Cubs. Go Joe.

He's a great manager. Not a perfect one.

The crazy thing is that almost all of his bullshit decisions actually worked out. You'd think that, law of averages and all, some of them would've ended with very different results.

It is hard for me to decide if they won because of him or in spite of him.  We all had our "What in hell are you doing?" moments.  Taking Hendricks out?  Using Lester against switch hitters or proficient bunters?  Having Baez bunt with the bases loaded and one out, on a two strike count?  But that's why he is the manager and we aren't.

[Quality Start Machine]

Contreras is batting leadoff tonight.

Fuck it Joe, let's roll.

[SKO]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

[R-V]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I agree that they should've pinch hit for him, but you realize Caratini is a switch hitter right?

[SKO]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I agree that they should've pinch hit for him, but you realize Caratini is a switch hitter right?

Weird. I had known that at one point but my At Bat app showed Caratini batting right handed that entire time. Either way, batting him 5th and letting him hit there was dumb.

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I know it's sorta your thing to lament every loss, but in any event I don't necessarily even agree here.  That was a high-leverage at-bat against a shit-bird team and presumably a shit-bird Red starter that based on his minor league #'s Caratini could reasonably be expected to hit--it wouldn't be Vic's first "clutch" hit as he hit a go-ahead HR late in the rubber match game vs. Milwaukee before being sent down.  Further, I imagine a hit would have given a boost Caratini's legitimacy (bear in mind, that there could be an open bench spot even after you count LaStella...more on this later).  This is not even getting into how Schwarber--whom I love and adore and can't wait until he finally shoves it up the ass of a loud, ungrateful and petulant portion of the fanbase (glares at Chuck)--just had, so recently, a series of horrific at-bats in the desert.  I know this may have begun to subside with him reaching base 4 times Monday on 2 BB's and 2 HBP's but regardless he was not in the starting lineup last night and to throw him up in that situation for his 1 at-bat and expect him to hit another grand slam like he surprisingly did vs. the Cardinals at the beginning of summer or just single or whatever...I just don't know what the upside is other than maybe winning this 1 game, at least compared with the myriad outcomes--both good and bad--that comes from Caratini batting there--I mean it goes without saying but there's no guarantee Schwarber has a better AB.  I mean, yeah, try to win, but you're playing a team that you're going to mostly otherwise be spending the next 10 days spanking and if this is one of the  games you lose, I've seen worse.  Does Schwarber deliver a single there and help the Cubs win this 1 game?  Maybe, sure.  But he could also whiff on 3 pitches, be done for the game, and Caratini doesn't get the experience of that at-bat.  And you still lose.

As it was, the Schwarber at-bat that he did have in the 9th was very good to see, and may pay off more for him and the team in the long run.  It was not as crucial of a game situation leading off the 9th down 2, but he still needed a quality AB against a good reliever, which he delivered by facing 8 pitches and lining a clean-as-fuck single to right.  Thanks in part to his at-bat to start the inning, Iglesias could be rendered unavailable (or limited) today.

[SKO]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I know it's sorta your thing to lament every loss, but in any event I don't necessarily even agree here.  That was a high-leverage at-bat against a shit-bird team and presumably a shit-bird Red starter that based on his minor league #'s Caratini could reasonably be expected to hit--it wouldn't be Vic's first "clutch" hit as he hit a go-ahead HR late in the rubber match game vs. Milwaukee before being sent down.  Further, I imagine a hit would have given a boost Caratini's legitimacy (bear in mind, that there could be an open bench spot even after you count LaStella...more on this later).  This is not even getting into how Schwarber--whom I love and adore and can't wait until he finally shoves it up the ass of a loud, ungrateful and petulant portion of the fanbase (glares at Chuck)--just had, so recently, a series of horrific at-bats in the desert.  I know this may have begun to subside with him reaching base 4 times Monday on 2 BB's and 2 HBP's but regardless he was not in the starting lineup last night and to throw him up in that situation for his 1 at-bat and expect him to hit another grand slam like his surprisingly did vs. the Cardinals at the beginning of summer or just single or whatever...I just don't know what the upside is other than maybe winning this 1 game, at least compared with the myriad outcomes--both good and bad--that came from Caratini batting there--I mean it goes without saying but there's no guarantee Schwarber has a better AB.  I mean, yeah, try to win, but you're playing team that you're going to mostly otherwise be spending the next 10 days spanking and if this is one of the  games you lose, I've seen worse.  Does Schwarber deliver a single there and help the Cubs win this 1 game?  Maybe, sure.  But he could also whiff on 3 pitches, be done for the game, and Caratini doesn't get the experience of that at-bat.

As it was, the Schwarber at-bat that he did have in the 9th was very good to see, and may pay off more for him and the team in the long run.  It was not as crucial of a game situation leading off the 9th down 2, but he still needed a quality AB against a good reliever, which he delivered by facing 8 pitches and lining a clean-as-fuck single to right.  Thanks in part to his at-bat to start the inning, Iglesias could be rendered unavailable (or limited) today.

It was not a shit-bird starter Caratini could be expected to hit. It was their very good closer with a sub 2.00 ERA who again, is vulnerable only to lefties and death to righties (and Caratini despite being a switch hitter is a stronger hitter from the right hand side based on his MILB stats). If you're going to write a 1000 word reply to my post, could you at least read the part where I noted that Caratini was facing the closer and noted that closer's dramatic splits before instead writing about a fictional matchup between Caratini and some strawman Reds starter that didn't happen?

Schwarber ended up facing the same closer in the next inning and singled to lead off, as you noted. It was one AB in a clutch situation where a hit probably delivers a win in a pennant race they lead by only 1.5 games. The time for prioritizing a young dude's confidence over winning games is gone, and even if it weren't Caratini is org filler. He's just a guy. This isn't letting Schwarber, a foundational piece, figure it out against MLB pitching because you need him, it's losing a game because you let the next George Kottaras take a key AB. It was the wrong call.

And considering this is the first time I've bumped this thread all year I'm hardly "lamenting every loss". Joe fucked up. It's okay to admit it.

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I know it's sorta your thing to lament every loss, but in any event I don't necessarily even agree here.  That was a high-leverage at-bat against a shit-bird team and presumably a shit-bird Red starter that based on his minor league #'s Caratini could reasonably be expected to hit--it wouldn't be Vic's first "clutch" hit as he hit a go-ahead HR late in the rubber match game vs. Milwaukee before being sent down.  Further, I imagine a hit would have given a boost Caratini's legitimacy (bear in mind, that there could be an open bench spot even after you count LaStella...more on this later).  This is not even getting into how Schwarber--whom I love and adore and can't wait until he finally shoves it up the ass of a loud, ungrateful and petulant portion of the fanbase (glares at Chuck)--just had, so recently, a series of horrific at-bats in the desert.  I know this may have begun to subside with him reaching base 4 times Monday on 2 BB's and 2 HBP's but regardless he was not in the starting lineup last night and to throw him up in that situation for his 1 at-bat and expect him to hit another grand slam like his surprisingly did vs. the Cardinals at the beginning of summer or just single or whatever...I just don't know what the upside is other than maybe winning this 1 game, at least compared with the myriad outcomes--both good and bad--that came from Caratini batting there--I mean it goes without saying but there's no guarantee Schwarber has a better AB.  I mean, yeah, try to win, but you're playing team that you're going to mostly otherwise be spending the next 10 days spanking and if this is one of the  games you lose, I've seen worse.  Does Schwarber deliver a single there and help the Cubs win this 1 game?  Maybe, sure.  But he could also whiff on 3 pitches, be done for the game, and Caratini doesn't get the experience of that at-bat.

As it was, the Schwarber at-bat that he did have in the 9th was very good to see, and may pay off more for him and the team in the long run.  It was not as crucial of a game situation leading off the 9th down 2, but he still needed a quality AB against a good reliever, which he delivered by facing 8 pitches and lining a clean-as-fuck single to right.  Thanks in part to his at-bat to start the inning, Iglesias could be rendered unavailable (or limited) today.

It was not a shit-bird starter Caratini could be expected to hit. It was their very good closer with a sub 2.00 ERA who again, is vulnerable only to lefties and death to righties (and Caratini despite being a switch hitter is a stronger hitter from the right hand side based on his MILB stats). If you're going to write a 1000 word reply to my post, could you at least read the part where I noted that Caratini was facing the closer and noted that closer's dramatic splits before instead writing about a fictional matchup between Caratini and some strawman Reds starter that didn't happen?

Schwarber ended up facing the same closer in the next inning and singled to lead off, as you noted. It was one AB in a clutch situation where a hit probably delivers a win in a pennant race they lead by only 1.5 games. The time for prioritizing a young dude's confidence over winning games is gone, and even if it weren't Caratini is org filler. He's just a guy. This isn't letting Schwarber, a foundational piece, figure it out against MLB pitching because you need him, it's losing a game because you let the next George Kottaras take a key AB. It was the wrong call.

And considering this is the first time I've bumped this thread all year I'm hardly "lamenting every loss". Joe fucked up. It's okay to admit it.

Oh.

I was at the game and had a few drinks.  Guess I should PAY THE FUCK ATTENTION, amirite.

Nevertheless  I stand by my assertion that letting Caratini bat is no big deal.  Also, there's no need to bump this thread after Maddon mystifyingly gambled everything late in the World Series with some weird and stupid shit.

[SKO]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I know it's sorta your thing to lament every loss, but in any event I don't necessarily even agree here.  That was a high-leverage at-bat against a shit-bird team and presumably a shit-bird Red starter that based on his minor league #'s Caratini could reasonably be expected to hit--it wouldn't be Vic's first "clutch" hit as he hit a go-ahead HR late in the rubber match game vs. Milwaukee before being sent down.  Further, I imagine a hit would have given a boost Caratini's legitimacy (bear in mind, that there could be an open bench spot even after you count LaStella...more on this later).  This is not even getting into how Schwarber--whom I love and adore and can't wait until he finally shoves it up the ass of a loud, ungrateful and petulant portion of the fanbase (glares at Chuck)--just had, so recently, a series of horrific at-bats in the desert.  I know this may have begun to subside with him reaching base 4 times Monday on 2 BB's and 2 HBP's but regardless he was not in the starting lineup last night and to throw him up in that situation for his 1 at-bat and expect him to hit another grand slam like his surprisingly did vs. the Cardinals at the beginning of summer or just single or whatever...I just don't know what the upside is other than maybe winning this 1 game, at least compared with the myriad outcomes--both good and bad--that came from Caratini batting there--I mean it goes without saying but there's no guarantee Schwarber has a better AB.  I mean, yeah, try to win, but you're playing team that you're going to mostly otherwise be spending the next 10 days spanking and if this is one of the  games you lose, I've seen worse.  Does Schwarber deliver a single there and help the Cubs win this 1 game?  Maybe, sure.  But he could also whiff on 3 pitches, be done for the game, and Caratini doesn't get the experience of that at-bat.

As it was, the Schwarber at-bat that he did have in the 9th was very good to see, and may pay off more for him and the team in the long run.  It was not as crucial of a game situation leading off the 9th down 2, but he still needed a quality AB against a good reliever, which he delivered by facing 8 pitches and lining a clean-as-fuck single to right.  Thanks in part to his at-bat to start the inning, Iglesias could be rendered unavailable (or limited) today.

It was not a shit-bird starter Caratini could be expected to hit. It was their very good closer with a sub 2.00 ERA who again, is vulnerable only to lefties and death to righties (and Caratini despite being a switch hitter is a stronger hitter from the right hand side based on his MILB stats). If you're going to write a 1000 word reply to my post, could you at least read the part where I noted that Caratini was facing the closer and noted that closer's dramatic splits before instead writing about a fictional matchup between Caratini and some strawman Reds starter that didn't happen?

Schwarber ended up facing the same closer in the next inning and singled to lead off, as you noted. It was one AB in a clutch situation where a hit probably delivers a win in a pennant race they lead by only 1.5 games. The time for prioritizing a young dude's confidence over winning games is gone, and even if it weren't Caratini is org filler. He's just a guy. This isn't letting Schwarber, a foundational piece, figure it out against MLB pitching because you need him, it's losing a game because you let the next George Kottaras take a key AB. It was the wrong call.

And considering this is the first time I've bumped this thread all year I'm hardly "lamenting every loss". Joe fucked up. It's okay to admit it.

Oh.

I was at the game and had a few drinks.  Guess I should PAY THE FUCK ATTENTION, amirite.

Nevertheless  I stand by my assertion that letting Caratini bat is no big deal.  Also, there's no need to bump this thread after Maddon mystifyingly gambled everything late in the World Series with some weird and stupid shit.

Hoisted on your own panktard.

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Batting Caratini 5th is dumb. Not pinch hitting for him w a left handed catcher and Schwarber both available against a closer who murders RHB and struggles vs LHB is incredibly stupid

I know it's sorta your thing to lament every loss, but in any event I don't necessarily even agree here.  That was a high-leverage at-bat against a shit-bird team and presumably a shit-bird Red starter that based on his minor league #'s Caratini could reasonably be expected to hit--it wouldn't be Vic's first "clutch" hit as he hit a go-ahead HR late in the rubber match game vs. Milwaukee before being sent down.  Further, I imagine a hit would have given a boost Caratini's legitimacy (bear in mind, that there could be an open bench spot even after you count LaStella...more on this later).  This is not even getting into how Schwarber--whom I love and adore and can't wait until he finally shoves it up the ass of a loud, ungrateful and petulant portion of the fanbase (glares at Chuck)--just had, so recently, a series of horrific at-bats in the desert.  I know this may have begun to subside with him reaching base 4 times Monday on 2 BB's and 2 HBP's but regardless he was not in the starting lineup last night and to throw him up in that situation for his 1 at-bat and expect him to hit another grand slam like his surprisingly did vs. the Cardinals at the beginning of summer or just single or whatever...I just don't know what the upside is other than maybe winning this 1 game, at least compared with the myriad outcomes--both good and bad--that came from Caratini batting there--I mean it goes without saying but there's no guarantee Schwarber has a better AB.  I mean, yeah, try to win, but you're playing team that you're going to mostly otherwise be spending the next 10 days spanking and if this is one of the  games you lose, I've seen worse.  Does Schwarber deliver a single there and help the Cubs win this 1 game?  Maybe, sure.  But he could also whiff on 3 pitches, be done for the game, and Caratini doesn't get the experience of that at-bat.

As it was, the Schwarber at-bat that he did have in the 9th was very good to see, and may pay off more for him and the team in the long run.  It was not as crucial of a game situation leading off the 9th down 2, but he still needed a quality AB against a good reliever, which he delivered by facing 8 pitches and lining a clean-as-fuck single to right.  Thanks in part to his at-bat to start the inning, Iglesias could be rendered unavailable (or limited) today.

It was not a shit-bird starter Caratini could be expected to hit. It was their very good closer with a sub 2.00 ERA who again, is vulnerable only to lefties and death to righties (and Caratini despite being a switch hitter is a stronger hitter from the right hand side based on his MILB stats). If you're going to write a 1000 word reply to my post, could you at least read the part where I noted that Caratini was facing the closer and noted that closer's dramatic splits before instead writing about a fictional matchup between Caratini and some strawman Reds starter that didn't happen?

Schwarber ended up facing the same closer in the next inning and singled to lead off, as you noted. It was one AB in a clutch situation where a hit probably delivers a win in a pennant race they lead by only 1.5 games. The time for prioritizing a young dude's confidence over winning games is gone, and even if it weren't Caratini is org filler. He's just a guy. This isn't letting Schwarber, a foundational piece, figure it out against MLB pitching because you need him, it's losing a game because you let the next George Kottaras take a key AB. It was the wrong call.

And considering this is the first time I've bumped this thread all year I'm hardly "lamenting every loss". Joe fucked up. It's okay to admit it.

Oh.

I was at the game and had a few drinks.  Guess I should PAY THE FUCK ATTENTION, amirite.

Nevertheless  I stand by my assertion that letting Caratini bat is no big deal.  Also, there's no need to bump this thread after Maddon mystifyingly gambled everything late in the World Series with some weird and stupid shit.

Hoisted on your own panktard.

Since we're doing an autopsy on Joe's management of the game can I ask if it was his decision to have Baez but in the 9th or did Baez do that by hisself?

[SKO]

Since we're doing an autopsy on Joe's management of the game can I ask if it was his decision to have Baez but in the 9th or did Baez do that by hisself?

He made the call but he said he was hoping Baez would actually be able to bunt for a hit. I was actually fine with that call, frankly, because Iglesias as I said is death to right handers usually and Javy was likely to swing himself out of his shoes, and Zobrist literally got a hit that should have tied the game (why did Gary Jones not send Heyward? It would have been close but Heyward is the best baserunner they have and even if he gets thrown out Zobrist still ends up in scoring position. He makes the weirdest decisions sometimes). I guess there's always the possibility Javy crushes a hanger and wins the game but the way I see it the bunt didn't hurt em.

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Since we're doing an autopsy on Joe's management of the game can I ask if it was his decision to have Baez but in the 9th or did Baez do that by hisself?

He made the call but he said he was hoping Baez would actually be able to bunt for a hit. I was actually fine with that call, frankly, because Iglesias as I said is death to right handers usually and Javy was likely to swing himself out of his shoes, and Zobrist literally got a hit that should have tied the game (why did Gary Jones not send Heyward? It would have been close but Heyward is the best baserunner they have and even if he gets thrown out Zobrist still ends up in scoring position. He makes the weirdest decisions sometimes). I guess there's always the possibility Javy crushes a hanger and wins the game but the way I see it the bunt didn't hurt em.

Though I have been proven to be too drunk/inattentive while in the physical presence of this game to remember that Caratin's AB was in the 8th, against Iglesias, I can assure you--for what sucha ssurances may be worth-- that Heyward hadn't even stepped on third when the right-fielder fielded the ball and the latter's throw was a strike to home and Heyward would have been out by 35 feet.

[SKO]

Since we're doing an autopsy on Joe's management of the game can I ask if it was his decision to have Baez but in the 9th or did Baez do that by hisself?

He made the call but he said he was hoping Baez would actually be able to bunt for a hit. I was actually fine with that call, frankly, because Iglesias as I said is death to right handers usually and Javy was likely to swing himself out of his shoes, and Zobrist literally got a hit that should have tied the game (why did Gary Jones not send Heyward? It would have been close but Heyward is the best baserunner they have and even if he gets thrown out Zobrist still ends up in scoring position. He makes the weirdest decisions sometimes). I guess there's always the possibility Javy crushes a hanger and wins the game but the way I see it the bunt didn't hurt em.

Though I have been proven to be too drunk/inattentive while in the physical presence of this game to remember that Caratin's AB was in the 8th, against Iglesias, I can assure you--for what sucha ssurances may be worth-- that Heyward hadn't even stepped on third when the right-fielder fielded the ball and the latter's throw was a strike to home and Heyward would have been out by 35 feet.

Fair enough. I was following on my phone and the clip I watched later doesn't really show Heyward's positioning very well, the way it was spliced it seemed to me that it would have been a bang/bang play in which case I usually would send Heyward since he's such a good baserunner and it takes a perfect play to get him.