Fuck It's Silent in Here 2016

[CBStew]

I used to consider myself a fiscal conservative, social liberal and now I support Sanders, which means I'm nothing like the man I used to be when I left Buttpuddle for bluer pastures. I mostly support him because he's not Hillary or Biden though. I think he would at least ATTEMPT to shake up the financial sector and try to avoid the same catastrophic fiscal policies that the Clintons and Republicans rode with pom poms waving right into a global economic meltdown. I think he'd have about as much success as Trump would have putting up a giant fence around the country but that's where I stand.

I've often wondered why people despise Obama so much - besides just outright racism - when if you compare him to the current field of lackwits the prospect of begging him to stay 8 more years looks like our best bet. I'm sure he'd refuse with double barreled middle digits blazing and we're completely fucked through the floor.

You guys with kids are braver than I am. I have about 30-40 years left on this rock before I check out and I'm not really looking forward to them.

DPD.  From an outsider's point of view, I reckon Obama is by some distance the most well-thought of US president we've seen since... well, I'm struggling to think of a better one.  Abraham Lincoln?

By some. But he's easily the most hated President ever by a unfortunately-sizeable contingent.

When making my (admittedly not deeply considered decision) to plump for Lincoln, it did indeed cross my mind to mention FDR or Ike, as Chuck Dickens suggested.  Would those two be more or less universally admired within the States?  If not, was there ever anybody that was?  JFK, maybe?

I think almost all presidents are remembered more fondly as time goes on. Hell, there are even people who wax nostalgic about W. now and he was a disaster and it's only been 7 years. FDR is thought of pretty well now, but I don't think that was so universal during his time.

I disagree.  Certainly there were some Americans during his administration who thought that Roosevelt was the devil incarnate.  (Many of them referred to him as "Rosenfeld".  What could be a worse insult?)  But people used to put his photo up in their homes.  (As many did with JFK.)  I must have been six or seven  years old before I realized that he wasn't a member of my family.  FDR was not just a wartime president, which elicited a patriotic devotion to him, he was also an aristocrat whom we believed empathized with us during the Depression and was trying all sorts of things to bring us out of it, including trying to "pack" the Supreme Court whose members seemed to not care about the national suffering.  Wilkie and Dewey were strong candidates but we elected FDR four times.  That his relatively unpopular successor was returned to office  in 1948 indicates to me that had FDR lived he would have been elected to a 5th term.

[CBStew]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

[InternetApex]

I used to consider myself a fiscal conservative, social liberal and now I support Sanders, which means I'm nothing like the man I used to be when I left Buttpuddle for bluer pastures. I mostly support him because he's not Hillary or Biden though. I think he would at least ATTEMPT to shake up the financial sector and try to avoid the same catastrophic fiscal policies that the Clintons and Republicans rode with pom poms waving right into a global economic meltdown. I think he'd have about as much success as Trump would have putting up a giant fence around the country but that's where I stand.

I've often wondered why people despise Obama so much - besides just outright racism - when if you compare him to the current field of lackwits the prospect of begging him to stay 8 more years looks like our best bet. I'm sure he'd refuse with double barreled middle digits blazing and we're completely fucked through the floor.

You guys with kids are braver than I am. I have about 30-40 years left on this rock before I check out and I'm not really looking forward to them.

DPD.  From an outsider's point of view, I reckon Obama is by some distance the most well-thought of US president we've seen since... well, I'm struggling to think of a better one.  Abraham Lincoln?

By some. But he's easily the most hated President ever by a unfortunately-sizeable contingent.

When making my (admittedly not deeply considered decision) to plump for Lincoln, it did indeed cross my mind to mention FDR or Ike, as Chuck Dickens suggested.  Would those two be more or less universally admired within the States?  If not, was there ever anybody that was?  JFK, maybe?

I think almost all presidents are remembered more fondly as time goes on. Hell, there are even people who wax nostalgic about W. now and he was a disaster and it's only been 7 years. FDR is thought of pretty well now, but I don't think that was so universal during his time.

I disagree.  Certainly there were some Americans during his administration who thought that Roosevelt was the devil incarnate.  (Many of them referred to him as "Rosenfeld".  What could be a worse insult?)  But people used to put his photo up in their homes.  (As many did with JFK.)  I must have been six or seven  years old before I realized that he wasn't a member of my family.  FDR was not just a wartime president, which elicited a patriotic devotion to him, he was also an aristocrat whom we believed empathized with us during the Depression and was trying all sorts of things to bring us out of it, including trying to "pack" the Supreme Court whose members seemed to not care about the national suffering.  Wilkie and Dewey were strong candidates but we elected FDR four times.  That his relatively unpopular successor was returned to office  in 1948 indicates to me that had FDR lived he would have been elected to a 5th term.

Cool story, dad. (no sarcasm)

My parents used to tell me that my grandfather used to work for the president. And in my childlike mind, it sounded like they'd told me that he WAS the president. At age 5 I told some people at my school that my grandfather used to be president and I got in trouble for lying. It was fucked up. "But he was on TV and everything!" I said. He was on "Meet The Press" once on an episode which I think included a panel of reporters who were present when Truman was sworn in. It didn't take me too long to realize how off base I was and I was truly embarrassed.

/cool story, bro.

[SKO]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

[ChuckD]

I used to consider myself a fiscal conservative, social liberal and now I support Sanders, which means I'm nothing like the man I used to be when I left Buttpuddle for bluer pastures. I mostly support him because he's not Hillary or Biden though. I think he would at least ATTEMPT to shake up the financial sector and try to avoid the same catastrophic fiscal policies that the Clintons and Republicans rode with pom poms waving right into a global economic meltdown. I think he'd have about as much success as Trump would have putting up a giant fence around the country but that's where I stand.

I've often wondered why people despise Obama so much - besides just outright racism - when if you compare him to the current field of lackwits the prospect of begging him to stay 8 more years looks like our best bet. I'm sure he'd refuse with double barreled middle digits blazing and we're completely fucked through the floor.

You guys with kids are braver than I am. I have about 30-40 years left on this rock before I check out and I'm not really looking forward to them.

DPD.  From an outsider's point of view, I reckon Obama is by some distance the most well-thought of US president we've seen since... well, I'm struggling to think of a better one.  Abraham Lincoln?

By some. But he's easily the most hated President ever by a unfortunately-sizeable contingent.

When making my (admittedly not deeply considered decision) to plump for Lincoln, it did indeed cross my mind to mention FDR or Ike, as Chuck Dickens suggested.  Would those two be more or less universally admired within the States?  If not, was there ever anybody that was?  JFK, maybe?

No, nobody since Lincoln approaches Lincoln's public admiration within the states. But I figured Europeans might think highly of FDR/Ike for a few reasons.

[Oleg]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

[Tonker]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

Jeez.  You drop two A-bombs...

[SKO]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

True. I suppose it all comes down to where you stand on that grey area. I can honestly say, looking at how devastating that war was to begin with and questioning how many more millions would die if it went on conventionally, versus dropping two bombs and being done with it all, that I'm not sure what choice I would have made in his place.

I mean a lot of people looking back say "Japan was close to surrendering, it was the entry of the Russians into the war in the Pacific that made them surrender anyway, not the bomb, etc" but hindsight is 20/20. At the time the Japanese were pretty goddamn adamant publicly that they were going to fight to the last civilian. With the information Truman had at hand I don't know that I can condemn him. It's understandable to say you'd never drop an atom bomb on someone, period, but if you're a guy that inherited a war that had already killed 50 million people and you honestly believe you chose the route that leads to fewer deaths, are you a bad guy?

Short answer is don't be president. Just don't do it.  

[Oleg]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

True. I suppose it all comes down to where you stand on that grey area. I can honestly say, looking at how devastating that war was to begin with and questioning how many more millions would die if it went on conventionally, versus dropping two bombs and being done with it all, that I'm not sure what choice I would have made in his place.

I mean a lot of people looking back say "Japan was close to surrendering, it was the entry of the Russians into the war in the Pacific that made them surrender anyway, not the bomb, etc" but hindsight is 20/20. At the time the Japanese were pretty goddamn adamant publicly that they were going to fight to the last civilian. With the information Truman had at hand I don't know that I can condemn him. It's understandable to say you'd never drop an atom bomb on someone, period, but if you're a guy that inherited a war that had already killed 50 million people and you honestly believe you chose the route that leads to fewer deaths, are you a bad guy?

Short answer is don't be president. Just don't do it.  

Yeah...I don't know where I stand anymore.  I wish there was a different option.  On the other hand, that devastation probably led to others not using that sort of weaponry -- could an argument be made that the dropping of those bombs influenced the handling of the missile crisis in '63?

I also suppose the firebombing of Dresden was just as devastating to those civilians.

War is hell.

[SKO]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

True. I suppose it all comes down to where you stand on that grey area. I can honestly say, looking at how devastating that war was to begin with and questioning how many more millions would die if it went on conventionally, versus dropping two bombs and being done with it all, that I'm not sure what choice I would have made in his place.

I mean a lot of people looking back say "Japan was close to surrendering, it was the entry of the Russians into the war in the Pacific that made them surrender anyway, not the bomb, etc" but hindsight is 20/20. At the time the Japanese were pretty goddamn adamant publicly that they were going to fight to the last civilian. With the information Truman had at hand I don't know that I can condemn him. It's understandable to say you'd never drop an atom bomb on someone, period, but if you're a guy that inherited a war that had already killed 50 million people and you honestly believe you chose the route that leads to fewer deaths, are you a bad guy?

Short answer is don't be president. Just don't do it.  

Yeah...I don't know where I stand anymore.  I wish there was a different option.  On the other hand, that devastation probably led to others not using that sort of weaponry -- could an argument be made that the dropping of those bombs influenced the handling of the missile crisis in '63?

I also suppose the firebombing of Dresden was just as devastating to those civilians.

War is hell.

Yeah the short answer is never use nuclear weapons, ever, and I don't blame anyone if they don't want to budge from that stance. But on the other hand in a war that saw the holocaust, the Russians clearing minefields by just marching their own civilians through them ahead of the troops, fire bombings, V2 rockets, etc...who comes out a good guy? No one, but I'm not sure the dude who decided to end it all with two A-Bombs comes out as a bad guy.

[CBStew]

I am not saying that Truman didn't accomplish anything during his presidency.  Although he was liked, he was not well respected.  He was always derided for a being a haberdasher whose business failed.

Yeah, I was saying Truman is an underrated president, and even the appraisals of his term during the first decade after he left office were not favorable, but history has been far more kind to him than his contemporaries. Looking back objectively he certainly appears to have been one of the better presidents of the 20th century and certainly one of the better human beings to occupy that office, period.

I definitely don't know nearly enough about Truman but he did drop two a-bombs on a bunch of civilians.  I know there's a ton of gray area there but he still did it.

If we are talking about how people felt in 1945, I think that the answer is that we were war weary and grateful for it ending.  We had been taught for years that the Japanese (to whom we did NOT refer to as "Japanese") were subhuman and in any event were not innocent because they supported a war making government and deserved what they got (watch any movie about the war in the Pacific that was made during the first half of the '40s).  We were so happy about the War being over we didn't dwell upon the enemy civilians.

[Bort]

How much of the love Clinton gets is just becuase the economy was awesome largely for reasons unrelated to him? I mean, the computer boom happened during his presidency. The single greatest invention/economic transformation of the century or in human history or whatever just conveniently occurred during his time in office. Of course people remember the decade of incredibly low unemployment and unsustainable economic growth fondly.

It was awesome on paper. We all learned soon enough how not awesome it was.

Yeah, I mean most Americans don't really do a critical analysis of cause and effect. Pretty much just a "hey was I happy with my life when that guy was president? He must have done OK" kinda thing. The 90s were definitely a decade of artificial hope, economy-wise.

I was poor as fuck in the Clinton era (I spent most of 1994-99 about two paychecks behind), and massively underemployed (admittedly, I was young, and didn't have a degree yet), so every time I hear about how great the economy was then I wonder how nice those clothes the emperor wore really were.

[Canadouche]

Not an endorsement of what is spoken here, but something I thought was interesting when I first read it 15 years ago.

You keep talking also about collective punishment and killing innocent people to force governments to change their policies; you call this terrorism when someone would kill innocent people or civilians in order to force the government to change its policies. Well, when you were the first one who invented this terrorism.
      You were the first one who killed innocent people, and you are the first one who introduced this type of terrorism to the history of mankind when you dropped an atomic bomb which killed tens of thousands of women and children in Japan and when you killed over a hundred thousand people, most of them civilians, in Tokyo with fire bombings. You killed them by burning them to death. And you killed civilians in Vietnam with chemicals as with the so- called Orange agent. You killed civilians and innocent people, not soldiers, innocent people every single war you went. You went to wars more than any other country in this century, and then you have the nerve to talk about killing innocent people.

That was said by Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the architect of the first World Trade Center bombings.

[InternetApex]

Not an endorsement of what is spoken here, but something I thought was interesting when I first read it 15 years ago.

You keep talking also about collective punishment and killing innocent people to force governments to change their policies; you call this terrorism when someone would kill innocent people or civilians in order to force the government to change its policies. Well, when you were the first one who invented this terrorism.
      You were the first one who killed innocent people, and you are the first one who introduced this type of terrorism to the history of mankind when you dropped an atomic bomb which killed tens of thousands of women and children in Japan and when you killed over a hundred thousand people, most of them civilians, in Tokyo with fire bombings. You killed them by burning them to death. And you killed civilians in Vietnam with chemicals as with the so- called Orange agent. You killed civilians and innocent people, not soldiers, innocent people every single war you went. You went to wars more than any other country in this century, and then you have the nerve to talk about killing innocent people.

That was said by Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the architect of the first World Trade Center bombings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKRQ_OqCCw

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

How much of the love Clinton gets is just becuase the economy was awesome largely for reasons unrelated to him? I mean, the computer boom happened during his presidency. The single greatest invention/economic transformation of the century or in human history or whatever just conveniently occurred during his time in office. Of course people remember the decade of incredibly low unemployment and unsustainable economic growth fondly.

It was awesome on paper. We all learned soon enough how not awesome it was.

Yeah, I mean most Americans don't really do a critical analysis of cause and effect. Pretty much just a "hey was I happy with my life when that guy was president? He must have done OK" kinda thing. The 90s were definitely a decade of artificial hope, economy-wise.

I was poor as fuck in the Clinton era (I spent most of 1994-99 about two paychecks behind), and massively underemployed (admittedly, I was young, and didn't have a degree yet), so every time I hear about how great the economy was then I wonder how nice those clothes the emperor wore really were.

So you were in college.  No offense, but isn't being poor a condition of college life? 

It certainly was for me.