2015 NLCS Thread: Chicago Cubs vs. New York Mets

[CT III]

You're right, I could've phrased that better. I'm not making the argument that the guy was statistically a great Cub. Only that he did have some non-negligible contributions to the '03 team.

My favorite Cub is Andre Dawson. Statistically, he wasn't actually that good as a Cub by the time I was old enough to watch/comprehend. But he gave me some great memories so, yeah, there's a non-quantifiable/nostalgia component to weighing whether a player should get scorn/adulation.

Gonzalez was a dependable (lol, right?) defender and happened to hit some home runs in huge spots that year. And yeah, maybe they could have gotten a better shortstop. But ... they didn't. They got Lofton, Ramirez, and Simon and all three were the tits and helped the team to win the division. Nothing happens in a vacuum, so if they upgraded at SS, maybe Hendry doesn't end up making those moves with Pittsburgh and we don't outpace the Astros in 2003 and we don't have Aramis at third for the rest of the decade.

He hit the walkoff dongs during the season that Huey mentioned and I remember watching him hit the CLUTCH home run in Game 5 of the NLDS that ended up being the game winner -- those gave me a lot of joy so that stuff gets accounted for when I tally up how I feel about a guy. Yeah, he booted a gimme at a clutch moment. So what? It was twelve years ago.

I get that the thing for SKO (and some others) is to hate every single thing that's within sniffing distance of a firebarn.  You guys are entitled to that.  But I'll still think you're all redasses for doing so. Anyway. As you were.

Go Cubs.
[/Sincerity]

I love as strongly as I hate, though, and while I remember all the same home runs you do it's still no less meatball to say YEA BUT HIS HOMERS CAME AT DA WRITE TIME than it is to hate him 12 years later for a major fuck up. I will love Randall Simon and Kenny Lofton forever. I never allowed an 0-6 playoff record to taint Derrek Lee or Soriano or even Mark DeRosa. There's not enough good in the Gonzalez ledger to outweigh the bad (and the bad includes him putting up a fucking 83 OPS+ over 2 1/2 seasons, not just one booted groundball) for me. If that makes me an ignorant red-ass, so be it, but I don't see how it's any less logical than you citing a few clutch hits as reason not to hate the guy.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. When I say I don't hate the guy, I'm not saying I love the guy.

I just don't give a shit about him and don't see why he should be crucified in your SCORNFIELD.

Anyway, this is more time invested in considering Alex Gonzalez than is merited. Merry Scornsgiving to you.

Scornsgiving is a lousy secular construction my people don't care for. Now is the holy time of Rosh Hoscornah.

Next topic: Cub Legend Nomar Garciaparra.

Don't get me started. The memories I have of Nomar hurt almost worse than the 2003 thing.

[SKO]

You're right, I could've phrased that better. I'm not making the argument that the guy was statistically a great Cub. Only that he did have some non-negligible contributions to the '03 team.

My favorite Cub is Andre Dawson. Statistically, he wasn't actually that good as a Cub by the time I was old enough to watch/comprehend. But he gave me some great memories so, yeah, there's a non-quantifiable/nostalgia component to weighing whether a player should get scorn/adulation.

Gonzalez was a dependable (lol, right?) defender and happened to hit some home runs in huge spots that year. And yeah, maybe they could have gotten a better shortstop. But ... they didn't. They got Lofton, Ramirez, and Simon and all three were the tits and helped the team to win the division. Nothing happens in a vacuum, so if they upgraded at SS, maybe Hendry doesn't end up making those moves with Pittsburgh and we don't outpace the Astros in 2003 and we don't have Aramis at third for the rest of the decade.

He hit the walkoff dongs during the season that Huey mentioned and I remember watching him hit the CLUTCH home run in Game 5 of the NLDS that ended up being the game winner -- those gave me a lot of joy so that stuff gets accounted for when I tally up how I feel about a guy. Yeah, he booted a gimme at a clutch moment. So what? It was twelve years ago.

I get that the thing for SKO (and some others) is to hate every single thing that's within sniffing distance of a firebarn.  You guys are entitled to that.  But I'll still think you're all redasses for doing so. Anyway. As you were.

Go Cubs.
[/Sincerity]

I love as strongly as I hate, though, and while I remember all the same home runs you do it's still no less meatball to say YEA BUT HIS HOMERS CAME AT DA WRITE TIME than it is to hate him 12 years later for a major fuck up. I will love Randall Simon and Kenny Lofton forever. I never allowed an 0-6 playoff record to taint Derrek Lee or Soriano or even Mark DeRosa. There's not enough good in the Gonzalez ledger to outweigh the bad (and the bad includes him putting up a fucking 83 OPS+ over 2 1/2 seasons, not just one booted groundball) for me. If that makes me an ignorant red-ass, so be it, but I don't see how it's any less logical than you citing a few clutch hits as reason not to hate the guy.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. When I say I don't hate the guy, I'm not saying I love the guy.

I just don't give a shit about him and don't see why he should be crucified in your SCORNFIELD.

Anyway, this is more time invested in considering Alex Gonzalez than is merited. Merry Scornsgiving to you.

Scornsgiving is a lousy secular construction my people don't care for. Now is the holy time of Rosh Hoscornah.

Fact: The Scornucopia is the best of all holiday centerpieces.

Not the Scorn of Plenty?

I'm partial to the menscornah, which we light every winter in memory of the time we kept the Snork firebarn burning for years despite a seeming lack of fuel, until the day came when all of our most fervent rage was rewarded a thousand times over. It was a true Scornukkah miracle.

We just hang two ears of Indian Scorn on our front door for the season.

I laughed harder than I ever thought possible at this Chork joke. Dammit.

[ChuckD]

You're right, I could've phrased that better. I'm not making the argument that the guy was statistically a great Cub. Only that he did have some non-negligible contributions to the '03 team.

My favorite Cub is Andre Dawson. Statistically, he wasn't actually that good as a Cub by the time I was old enough to watch/comprehend. But he gave me some great memories so, yeah, there's a non-quantifiable/nostalgia component to weighing whether a player should get scorn/adulation.

Gonzalez was a dependable (lol, right?) defender and happened to hit some home runs in huge spots that year. And yeah, maybe they could have gotten a better shortstop. But ... they didn't. They got Lofton, Ramirez, and Simon and all three were the tits and helped the team to win the division. Nothing happens in a vacuum, so if they upgraded at SS, maybe Hendry doesn't end up making those moves with Pittsburgh and we don't outpace the Astros in 2003 and we don't have Aramis at third for the rest of the decade.

He hit the walkoff dongs during the season that Huey mentioned and I remember watching him hit the CLUTCH home run in Game 5 of the NLDS that ended up being the game winner -- those gave me a lot of joy so that stuff gets accounted for when I tally up how I feel about a guy. Yeah, he booted a gimme at a clutch moment. So what? It was twelve years ago.

I get that the thing for SKO (and some others) is to hate every single thing that's within sniffing distance of a firebarn.  You guys are entitled to that.  But I'll still think you're all redasses for doing so. Anyway. As you were.

Go Cubs.
[/Sincerity]

I love as strongly as I hate, though, and while I remember all the same home runs you do it's still no less meatball to say YEA BUT HIS HOMERS CAME AT DA WRITE TIME than it is to hate him 12 years later for a major fuck up. I will love Randall Simon and Kenny Lofton forever. I never allowed an 0-6 playoff record to taint Derrek Lee or Soriano or even Mark DeRosa. There's not enough good in the Gonzalez ledger to outweigh the bad (and the bad includes him putting up a fucking 83 OPS+ over 2 1/2 seasons, not just one booted groundball) for me. If that makes me an ignorant red-ass, so be it, but I don't see how it's any less logical than you citing a few clutch hits as reason not to hate the guy.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. When I say I don't hate the guy, I'm not saying I love the guy.

I just don't give a shit about him and don't see why he should be crucified in your SCORNFIELD.

Anyway, this is more time invested in considering Alex Gonzalez than is merited. Merry Scornsgiving to you.

Scornsgiving is a lousy secular construction my people don't care for. Now is the holy time of Rosh Hoscornah.

Next topic: Cub Legend Nomar Garciaparra.

Don't get me started. The memories I have of Nomar hurt almost worse than the 2003 thing Nomar's tattered groin muscle.

[SKO]

You're right, I could've phrased that better. I'm not making the argument that the guy was statistically a great Cub. Only that he did have some non-negligible contributions to the '03 team.

My favorite Cub is Andre Dawson. Statistically, he wasn't actually that good as a Cub by the time I was old enough to watch/comprehend. But he gave me some great memories so, yeah, there's a non-quantifiable/nostalgia component to weighing whether a player should get scorn/adulation.

Gonzalez was a dependable (lol, right?) defender and happened to hit some home runs in huge spots that year. And yeah, maybe they could have gotten a better shortstop. But ... they didn't. They got Lofton, Ramirez, and Simon and all three were the tits and helped the team to win the division. Nothing happens in a vacuum, so if they upgraded at SS, maybe Hendry doesn't end up making those moves with Pittsburgh and we don't outpace the Astros in 2003 and we don't have Aramis at third for the rest of the decade.

He hit the walkoff dongs during the season that Huey mentioned and I remember watching him hit the CLUTCH home run in Game 5 of the NLDS that ended up being the game winner -- those gave me a lot of joy so that stuff gets accounted for when I tally up how I feel about a guy. Yeah, he booted a gimme at a clutch moment. So what? It was twelve years ago.

I get that the thing for SKO (and some others) is to hate every single thing that's within sniffing distance of a firebarn.  You guys are entitled to that.  But I'll still think you're all redasses for doing so. Anyway. As you were.

Go Cubs.
[/Sincerity]

I love as strongly as I hate, though, and while I remember all the same home runs you do it's still no less meatball to say YEA BUT HIS HOMERS CAME AT DA WRITE TIME than it is to hate him 12 years later for a major fuck up. I will love Randall Simon and Kenny Lofton forever. I never allowed an 0-6 playoff record to taint Derrek Lee or Soriano or even Mark DeRosa. There's not enough good in the Gonzalez ledger to outweigh the bad (and the bad includes him putting up a fucking 83 OPS+ over 2 1/2 seasons, not just one booted groundball) for me. If that makes me an ignorant red-ass, so be it, but I don't see how it's any less logical than you citing a few clutch hits as reason not to hate the guy.

Maybe you're misunderstanding. When I say I don't hate the guy, I'm not saying I love the guy.

I just don't give a shit about him and don't see why he should be crucified in your SCORNFIELD.

Anyway, this is more time invested in considering Alex Gonzalez than is merited. Merry Scornsgiving to you.

Scornsgiving is a lousy secular construction my people don't care for. Now is the holy time of Rosh Hoscornah.

Next topic: Cub Legend Nomar Garciaparra.

Don't get me started. The memories I have of Nomar hurt almost worse than the 2003 thing Nomar's tattered groin muscle.

My family was on a weekend trip to Six Flags when the news of that trade broke. It was all over local news and ESPN in the hotel. I couldn't wait to get home and update my MVP 2004 roster just to see that lineup in action. Sigh.

[Tony]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

[Oleg]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

[Tony]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

[Saul Goodman]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

James Russell?

[Tony]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

James Russell?

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

[PenFoe]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

James Russell?

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

[Canadouche]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

James Russell?

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

...we had Jesus?

[Tony]

This hurts depth but I can't see it mattering that much in a short series, agree that Russell is a more fundamentally sound defensive SS although Javy is certainly capable of some amazing plays. Javy's bat is probably better right now, and lord knows whatever hits he does get will be ones that count for something.

It probably means we see Johnny Buckets on the NLCS roster?

I doubt it. I'd add another pitcher. Javy and Starlin can both play short and second and La Stella and Coghlan can play 2B. Really don't think another middle infielder is necessary.

They definitely need another pitcher. Especially if Hammel's starts are essentially bullpen games.

Can it be Kershaw or Degrom?  Whichever doesn't make it to the NLCS.

No, but it could be another pitcher with long hair and a bad beard.

James Russell?

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

I wasn't going to say it, but I guess if I had we wouldn't be seeing that picture, so I guess I should have. Ew.

[Canadouche]

It's weird how, in our moment of triumph, we reflect so much on past failures. I can't blame us, I think the heartache is what gives meaning to the joy we'll feel if and when they win. I actually kind of hate how, in the media, the discussion has to be about those past failures, though. I keep worrying that somehow it's going to bleed through into the mindsets of the current team, since they keep getting asked question after question about it.

But I have faith that they'll get as far as their ability carries them. I don't think they're going to lose via stupid fuck-ups, even as we are reminded that stupid post-season fuck-ups are hardly just a Cubs thing. That remains my one hope for the playoffs -- piss me off by failing to execute, just don't break my heart by blowing it.

[PenFoe]

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

[Tony]

Oh man... I forgot how many hairy pitchers we've gone through.

OK so they've all been hairy. I was thinking of this one.