2015 Cubs Offseason: Building a Winner Around David Ross

[Chuck to Chuck]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

[PenFoe]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

It's in Chuck's datase.

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

It's in Chuck's datase.

I think Chuck "read it" in that he wrote it down and then he read it.

[Oleg]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Greg Maddux age/innings counts:

22 - 249
23 - 238
24 - 237
25 - 263
26 - 268
27 - 267
...
42 - 194

The problem with these examples is that, of course, we all know of the HoFers who threw forever and a lot.

But, there was also Jim Gullickson and Steve Avery and a shitton of other pitchers who are even less memorable because they blew their arms out at a young age because we simply didn't know any better back then.  I would venture to guess that Maddux and Jenkins and Ryan and Seaver were much more of exceptions to the rule.

[SKO]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Greg Maddux age/innings counts:

22 - 249
23 - 238
24 - 237
25 - 263
26 - 268
27 - 267
...
42 - 194

The problem with these examples is that, of course, we all know of the HoFers who threw forever and a lot.

But, there was also Jim Gullickson and Steve Avery and a shitton of other pitchers who are even less memorable because they blew their arms out at a young age because we simply didn't know any better back then.  I would venture to guess that Maddux and Jenkins and Ryan and Seaver were much more of exceptions to the rule.

Right, back in the day people also didn't have the kind of information about prospects and stuff that we do now. Who knows how many Jose Fernandezes blew their arms out in the minors in the 70s and nobody ever knew what they'd lost, what they never had.

[CBStew]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

Spahn and Sain and pray for rain.

[Quality Start Machine]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Greg Maddux age/innings counts:

22 - 249
23 - 238
24 - 237
25 - 263
26 - 268
27 - 267
...
42 - 194

The problem with these examples is that, of course, we all know of the HoFers who threw forever and a lot.

But, there was also Jim Gullickson and Steve Avery and a shitton of other pitchers who are even less memorable because they blew their arms out at a young age because we simply didn't know any better back then.  I would venture to guess that Maddux and Jenkins and Ryan and Seaver were much more of exceptions to the rule.

It could also be that the conventional wisdom existed then that the average pitcher was just done by age 30, so when beasts like Sam McDowell or Jim Maloney crapped out it was expected.

[CBStew]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23576938/pitch-counts-not-marichal-spahn-era

[CBStew]

I was listening to this game while studying for finals in law school

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MLN/MLN195905260.shtml

[Oleg]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23576938/pitch-counts-not-marichal-spahn-era

I think the only thing that's crystal clear from the article is that Juan Marichal should be kept really far away from young pitchers.

[SKO]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23576938/pitch-counts-not-marichal-spahn-era

I think the only thing that's crystal clear from the article is that Juan Marichal should be kept really far away from young pitchers.

That's almost but not quite as dumb as Jason Isringhausen, the former great starting pitching prospect whose career was ruined by elbow injuries, complaining how kids today have it easy and how in his day you threw complete games in the minors by god.

[R-V]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

It's in Chuck's datase.

Ah the infamous Friedman is Better than Theo datase. As elusive as the Ark of the Covenant.

[SKO]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

It's in Chuck's datase.

Ah the infamous Friedman is Better than Theo datase. As elusive as the Ark of the Covenant.

It'll be really fascinating to see how that dataset looks in a few years now that both of them are running big market teams.

[Saul Goodman]

I really wonder how the hell guys back in the 60s handled those workloads. Fergie Jenkins averaged 301 IP from age 24-32. I know they didn't throw as hard as guys now, but by most accounts Fergie threw 90+. I don't know how anyone's arm survived that.

I don't know if this mattered, but everyone used a full windup back then. Not sure if that meant more body velocity and less wear on the arm. Hell, it seemed like every pitcher on the Mets had a huge ass and they all drove their bodies toward the plate, with their knee hitting the dirt. Not a lot of sore arms on those fucking Mets teams...Gary Gentry was the only one that springs to mind.

Jim Bouton is a good example and he talks about it a lot in his book. He averaged 260 innings at 24 and 25 and by 26 his fastball was completely gone, which is why he had to re-invent himself as a knuckleballer just to hang around the game for another few years. You wonder how many of those guys could have had 10 year careers as starters if they had the same kind of limitations as they do now.

Years ago, SI had an article about the guys with longevity all never hit 200 innings in a year at any level until after they turned 25. Interesting correlation.

Jim Kaat threw 200 and 269 in his age 22 and 23 seasons respectively. Which begs the question, what did you actually read?

I want to say it was a piece on Nolan Ryan's longevity.  Some time between 1985 and 1995. Searched the SI vault for a few minutes. Will look again later. The article wasn't as absolute as my off the cuff post suggested.  Wish I could find it.

It's in Chuck's datase.

Ah the infamous Friedman is Better than Theo datase. As elusive as the Ark of the Covenant.

It'll be really fascinating to see how that dataset looks in a few years now that both of them are running big market teams.

LA has the top ranked farm system now. That means the Cubs' talent well is drying up. Epstink is terrible. Fire Theo.

[PenFoe]

Some fun facts from Tristan Cockroft's ESPN piece today.

- After striking out in 33.9 percent of his trips to the plate between the majors and minors in 2014, seventh-highest of any pro, Javier Baez cut his whiff rate to 24.5 percent between the majors and minors in 2015. That 9.4 percent improvement was the second-best among any professional baseball player who had at least 400 plate appearances in both seasons, behind only Nick Williams (28.6 percent to 18.8, 9.8 percent improvement).

- Kyle Schwarber is only the 10th player in the past 100 years to manage at least 16 home runs and 36 walks through his first 69 career games. He is the only one of the 10 to have caught a single one of those 69 games; he caught 21 games and totaled five home runs and eight walks while playing that position.

- In 2015, Kris Bryant became only the 17th player in history to manage at least 25 home runs, .200 isolated power and a 10 percent walk rate during their rookie seasons. Among some of the other names on the list: Joe Gordon, Albert Pujols, Al Rosen, Mike Trout, Ted Williams.