2015 Cubs Offseason: Building a Winner Around David Ross

[World's #1 Astros Fan]

Jason Hammel ✔ @HammelTime39
Welcome aboard @JasonHeyward, Zobie-Wan Zobrist & dat Johnny Lackey!! Gonna b a fun ride! #Cubs #FlyTheW #HellYes! #BleedCubbieBlue #162-0

Hell no. Zobie-Wan Kenzobi at least fits the pattern of the original.

Zobanzo Beans?

BCB as a hashtag? Al no doubt jerked it to that, at least twice. Trade Hammel ASAP.

Yeah that's just another nail in Hammel's coffin in my book.  Pfft...like he's going to be around in August anyway.

Hopefully, the scuttlebutt about his balky knee contributing to his second half swoon is correct and we get a healthy first-half 2015 of version Hammel next Spring. So they can trade him.

Yup.  Barring any surprises in Mesa I see one of two outcomes to the rotation come Opening Day.  Either Hammel and Warren are both starters with Hendricks pitching in Iowa or Hammel and Hendricks are in the rotation with Warren in the bullpen.  Either scenario has Hammel in the rotation because hopefully he can pitch well enough to be flipped, and the the rotation would finish with Warren and Hendricks at 4/5.  By all means they can improve on Hendricks but that's a helluva lot better than what they had going into last year.

[Canadouche]

Get amp'd for the most creative thing since the 2004 NSBB pitching staff shirts:

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2015/12/12/9927990/welcome-cubs-jason-heyward-hey-jude-parody

Only Alvin and his band of idiots could ruin both the Heyward signing and the Beatles.

I generally avoid the hatred/annoyance/whatever by folks on these forums toward Al, but reading the first two verses of this parody actually made me angry. Then I quit reading them and immediately started feeling better. Hopefully I'll forget about the entire eye-scorch by the end of the day.

[Quality Start Machine]

Get amp'd for the most creative thing since the 2004 NSBB pitching staff shirts:

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2015/12/12/9927990/welcome-cubs-jason-heyward-hey-jude-parody

Only Alvin and his band of idiots could ruin both the Heyward signing and the Beatles.

I generally avoid the hatred/annoyance/whatever by folks on these forums toward Al, but reading the first two verses of this parody actually made me angry. Then I quit reading them and immediately started feeling better. Hopefully I'll forget about the entire eye-scorch by the end of the day.

i want to go egg whichever Potbelly this guy is probably singing in.

[Yeti]

Get amp'd for the most creative thing since the 2004 NSBB pitching staff shirts:

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2015/12/12/9927990/welcome-cubs-jason-heyward-hey-jude-parody

Only Alvin and his band of idiots could ruin both the Heyward signing and the Beatles.

I generally avoid the hatred/annoyance/whatever by folks on these forums toward Al, but reading the first two verses of this parody actually made me angry. Then I quit reading them and immediately started feeling better. Hopefully I'll forget about the entire eye-scorch by the end of the day.

Throughout all this fun, I completely forgot about finding his moronic views. And I feel better for him not being on my radar. Back in November, I did check to see if he did a "Building a winner" post like he did when he pined for Jeff Franceour, but no luck. Haven't been back since.

[Oleg]

Jason Hammel ✔ @HammelTime39
Welcome aboard @JasonHeyward, Zobie-Wan Zobrist & dat Johnny Lackey!! Gonna b a fun ride! #Cubs #FlyTheW #HellYes! #BleedCubbieBlue #162-0

Hell no. Zobie-Wan Kenzobi at least fits the pattern of the original.

Zobanzo Beans?

BCB as a hashtag? Al no doubt jerked it to that, at least twice. Trade Hammel ASAP.

Yeah that's just another nail in Hammel's coffin in my book.  Pfft...like he's going to be around in August anyway.

Hopefully, the scuttlebutt about his balky knee contributing to his second half swoon is correct and we get a healthy first-half 2015 of version Hammel next Spring. So they can trade him.

Yup.  Barring any surprises in Mesa I see one of two outcomes to the rotation come Opening Day.  Either Hammel and Warren are both starters with Hendricks pitching in Iowa or Hammel and Hendricks are in the rotation with Warren in the bullpen.  Either scenario has Hammel in the rotation because hopefully he can pitch well enough to be flipped, and the the rotation would finish with Warren and Hendricks at 4/5.  By all means they can improve on Hendricks but that's a helluva lot better than what they had going into last year.

What about Tyson Ross?

[SKO]

Jason Hammel ✔ @HammelTime39
Welcome aboard @JasonHeyward, Zobie-Wan Zobrist & dat Johnny Lackey!! Gonna b a fun ride! #Cubs #FlyTheW #HellYes! #BleedCubbieBlue #162-0

Hell no. Zobie-Wan Kenzobi at least fits the pattern of the original.

Zobanzo Beans?

BCB as a hashtag? Al no doubt jerked it to that, at least twice. Trade Hammel ASAP.

Yeah that's just another nail in Hammel's coffin in my book.  Pfft...like he's going to be around in August anyway.

Hopefully, the scuttlebutt about his balky knee contributing to his second half swoon is correct and we get a healthy first-half 2015 of version Hammel next Spring. So they can trade him.

Yup.  Barring any surprises in Mesa I see one of two outcomes to the rotation come Opening Day.  Either Hammel and Warren are both starters with Hendricks pitching in Iowa or Hammel and Hendricks are in the rotation with Warren in the bullpen.  Either scenario has Hammel in the rotation because hopefully he can pitch well enough to be flipped, and the the rotation would finish with Warren and Hendricks at 4/5.  By all means they can improve on Hendricks but that's a helluva lot better than what they had going into last year.

What about Tyson Ross?

The trade market would have to plummet for the cost of acquiring Ross to drop to where I think Theo and Jed would do it. I don't think Soler+prospects would get it done, and frankly while I'd trade Soler for him I'm not sure he's worth Soler and Gleyber, etc (and it sounds like the Cubs may very well have offered Soler+prospects in July and were rebuffed anyway, and the cost certainly hasn't gone down since).

I know you're hoping that teams will realize that Boston and Arizona giving up the farm for Kimbrel and Miller is the exception rather than the rule and prices will eventually drop, but so far it doesn't sound like anyone has lowered their asking prices yet.

[Slaky]

Jason Hammel ✔ @HammelTime39
Welcome aboard @JasonHeyward, Zobie-Wan Zobrist & dat Johnny Lackey!! Gonna b a fun ride! #Cubs #FlyTheW #HellYes! #BleedCubbieBlue #162-0

Hell no. Zobie-Wan Kenzobi at least fits the pattern of the original.

Zobanzo Beans?

BCB as a hashtag? Al no doubt jerked it to that, at least twice. Trade Hammel ASAP.

Yeah that's just another nail in Hammel's coffin in my book.  Pfft...like he's going to be around in August anyway.

Hopefully, the scuttlebutt about his balky knee contributing to his second half swoon is correct and we get a healthy first-half 2015 of version Hammel next Spring. So they can trade him.

Yup.  Barring any surprises in Mesa I see one of two outcomes to the rotation come Opening Day.  Either Hammel and Warren are both starters with Hendricks pitching in Iowa or Hammel and Hendricks are in the rotation with Warren in the bullpen.  Either scenario has Hammel in the rotation because hopefully he can pitch well enough to be flipped, and the the rotation would finish with Warren and Hendricks at 4/5.  By all means they can improve on Hendricks but that's a helluva lot better than what they had going into last year.

What about Tyson Ross?

The trade market would have to plummet for the cost of acquiring Ross to drop to where I think Theo and Jed would do it. I don't think Soler+prospects would get it done, and frankly while I'd trade Soler for him I'm not sure he's worth Soler and Gleyber, etc (and it sounds like the Cubs may very well have offered Soler+prospects in July and were rebuffed anyway, and the cost certainly hasn't gone down since).

I know you're hoping that teams will realize that Boston and Arizona giving up the farm for Kimbrel and Miller is the exception rather than the rule and prices will eventually drop, but so far it doesn't sound like anyone has lowered their asking prices yet.

It blows my mind that the pitching seems to be what people are overpaying for when hitting is the commodity.

[SKO]

Jason Hammel ✔ @HammelTime39
Welcome aboard @JasonHeyward, Zobie-Wan Zobrist & dat Johnny Lackey!! Gonna b a fun ride! #Cubs #FlyTheW #HellYes! #BleedCubbieBlue #162-0

Hell no. Zobie-Wan Kenzobi at least fits the pattern of the original.

Zobanzo Beans?

BCB as a hashtag? Al no doubt jerked it to that, at least twice. Trade Hammel ASAP.

Yeah that's just another nail in Hammel's coffin in my book.  Pfft...like he's going to be around in August anyway.

Hopefully, the scuttlebutt about his balky knee contributing to his second half swoon is correct and we get a healthy first-half 2015 of version Hammel next Spring. So they can trade him.

Yup.  Barring any surprises in Mesa I see one of two outcomes to the rotation come Opening Day.  Either Hammel and Warren are both starters with Hendricks pitching in Iowa or Hammel and Hendricks are in the rotation with Warren in the bullpen.  Either scenario has Hammel in the rotation because hopefully he can pitch well enough to be flipped, and the the rotation would finish with Warren and Hendricks at 4/5.  By all means they can improve on Hendricks but that's a helluva lot better than what they had going into last year.

What about Tyson Ross?

The trade market would have to plummet for the cost of acquiring Ross to drop to where I think Theo and Jed would do it. I don't think Soler+prospects would get it done, and frankly while I'd trade Soler for him I'm not sure he's worth Soler and Gleyber, etc (and it sounds like the Cubs may very well have offered Soler+prospects in July and were rebuffed anyway, and the cost certainly hasn't gone down since).

I know you're hoping that teams will realize that Boston and Arizona giving up the farm for Kimbrel and Miller is the exception rather than the rule and prices will eventually drop, but so far it doesn't sound like anyone has lowered their asking prices yet.

It blows my mind that the pitching seems to be what people are overpaying for when hitting is the commodity.

Pitching Wins Championships has been beaten into people for so long that it's going to take awhile to disabuse most front offices of that notion. Hell, people will point to what the Mets did to the Cubs as evidence that arms are still more valuable than bats, and maybe they still are in a short playoff series, but it's hard to see the Mets sustaining their success if they don't find consistent offense somewhere. They're not going to be able to count on a Cespedes arriving midseason ever year or the Nats imploding (well, maybe they can).

Heck, the Royals had one of the weakest rotations in baseball last year, but their deep lineup of irritatingly good contact hitters and a shut down bullpen carried them to the championship.

[SKO]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

[Oleg]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

[SKO]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

Yeah, supposedly the Cubs have inquired on Inciarte. Inciarte was  5.3 bWAR player, Fangraphs had him as a 3.3. So I mean if you're just using WAR he's inarguably better than what Soler was (0.1). But I feel like we saw the worst version of Jorge and the best version of Inciarte this year. I know there are very realistic reasons for thinking Jorge will never reach his peak, but I'd still rather keep him than trade him for a scrappy center fielder coming off a career year. If they're going to move him I'd prefer it be part of a package for a high end starter.

[Oleg]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

Yeah, supposedly the Cubs have inquired on Inciarte. Inciarte was  5.3 bWAR player, Fangraphs had him as a 3.3. So I mean if you're just using WAR he's inarguably better than what Soler was (0.1). But I feel like we saw the worst version of Jorge and the best version of Inciarte this year. I know there are very realistic reasons for thinking Jorge will never reach his peak, but I'd still rather keep him than trade him for a scrappy center fielder coming off a career year. If they're going to move him I'd prefer it be part of a package for a high end starter.

I think I'd have Apex levels of butthurt if they traded Soler for Inciarte.

[SKO]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

Yeah, supposedly the Cubs have inquired on Inciarte. Inciarte was  5.3 bWAR player, Fangraphs had him as a 3.3. So I mean if you're just using WAR he's inarguably better than what Soler was (0.1). But I feel like we saw the worst version of Jorge and the best version of Inciarte this year. I know there are very realistic reasons for thinking Jorge will never reach his peak, but I'd still rather keep him than trade him for a scrappy center fielder coming off a career year. If they're going to move him I'd prefer it be part of a package for a high end starter.

I think I'd have Apex levels of butthurt if they traded Soler for Inciarte.

Oh good, well that just leaves Eli to tell us all how dumb we are.

[Oleg]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

Yeah, supposedly the Cubs have inquired on Inciarte. Inciarte was  5.3 bWAR player, Fangraphs had him as a 3.3. So I mean if you're just using WAR he's inarguably better than what Soler was (0.1). But I feel like we saw the worst version of Jorge and the best version of Inciarte this year. I know there are very realistic reasons for thinking Jorge will never reach his peak, but I'd still rather keep him than trade him for a scrappy center fielder coming off a career year. If they're going to move him I'd prefer it be part of a package for a high end starter.

I think I'd have Apex levels of butthurt if they traded Soler for Inciarte.

Oh good, well that just leaves Eli to tell us all how dumb we are.

What if it's for Inciarte and Teheran?  I'm not sure I'm OK with that either but it's probably not an option anyway.

[Eli]

Does it make me a hypocrite to talk about how valuable Heyward is but not want to trade Soler for Inciarte? I know what WAR says and all but it feels like Inciarte was at the peak of his value in 2015, which is a 3 win player mostly thanks to defense, and I feel like Soler's potential is still greater than that. To me the value lost by playing Heyward in CF (if there really is any, and I'm not convinced there is given how small Wrigley's CF is anyway and how much better Heyward's bat plays there) to keep Soler is less than the value lost by selling low on Jorge.

I dunno. Call me an idiot.

Wait...is trading Soler for Inciarte really a thing?  I don't think I'd want to do that deal, objectively speaking.  I'm not sure what the marginal wins added are in that deal.

Having said that, here's another piece of awesomeness about the Heyward deal.  It's probably the first time ever that Cameron has even suggested that an opt-out may be a win for the team giving it.

Yeah, supposedly the Cubs have inquired on Inciarte. Inciarte was  5.3 bWAR player, Fangraphs had him as a 3.3. So I mean if you're just using WAR he's inarguably better than what Soler was (0.1). But I feel like we saw the worst version of Jorge and the best version of Inciarte this year. I know there are very realistic reasons for thinking Jorge will never reach his peak, but I'd still rather keep him than trade him for a scrappy center fielder coming off a career year. If they're going to move him I'd prefer it be part of a package for a high end starter.

I think I'd have Apex levels of butthurt if they traded Soler for Inciarte.

Oh good, well that just leaves Eli to tell us all how dumb we are.

I don't really think there's a dumb side to this one. I think it depends what they're after. If they're really trying to maximize this next 2-3 years, Inciarte is a safer bet to provide value because he has a clearly established skill. Soler hasn't really proven he can do anything consistently well in the majors, besides look really good in a baseball uniform. But there's obviously reason to believe in his upside.

It's just a matter of floors and ceilings. Inciarte's a safe bet to be worth 2ish wins, and Jorge could probably range anywhere from 0 to 4 wins. I'm not sure I'd be all that thrilled about giving up Jorge for Inciarte but I can see the appeal, especially if it lets them have an elite defensive outfield at 2/3 spots and help cover for Schwarber's shortcomings out there.